Can someone be an ATG...

[lparm]

...If they lose to every great prime fighter they fought? That's the position DLH is in. He's never beaten a great fighter that wasn't old and on the slide. Every argument for DLH talk about his accomplishments but does beating a Vargas here or a Castillejo there or the occasional Gatti mean that he's accomplished something others haven't?

[Thread Stealer]

...If they lose to every great prime fighter they fought? That's the position DLH is in. He's never beaten a great fighter that wasn't old and on the slide. Every argument for DLH talk about his accomplishments but does beating a Vargas here or a Castillejo there or the occasional Gatti mean that he's accomplished something others haven't?

Yes, because there's not too many "greats" around. I guess it depends on one's own criteria of "great".

Julio Cesar Chavez beat plenty of good and very good fighters, but I'd say it's a stretch to call Edwin Rosario a "great". He lost (in everyone's eyes) to a near-prime Pernell Whitaker, and was stopped twice by prime/near prime versions of Oscar De La Hoya and Kostya Tszyu when he was old, but he's an ATG.

If you have to beat a prime great to be a great, then it kind of just keeps going back and back. "Well who did he beat? So and so. Who did so and so beat that was great? This mo-fo. Who did this mo-fo beat that was great?". It just goes on and on.

[Dan...]

It depends on what your criteria for an ATG is. For some beating a prime "great" fighter is a prerequisite, so in that case then no, you can't be an ATG unless you accomplish that.

Plenty of ppl like to nominate Tyson as an ATG though. Just remember, if you adopt this criteria then there are very few ATG fighters around, especially if you are strict with your "prime" criteria.

[lparm]

It depends on what your criteria for an ATG is. For some beating a prime "great" fighter is a prerequisite, so in that case then no, you can't be an ATG unless you accomplish that.

Plenty of ppl like to nominate Tyson as an ATG though. Just remember, if you adopt this criteria then there are very few ATG fighters around, especially if you are strict with your "prime" criteria.

Did Tyson clean out his division? For several years was there any question that Tyson was the best heavy? Did DLH clean out his division? Has he ever been the best in any division?

[Dan...]

Did Tyson clean out his division? For several years was there any question that Tyson was the best heavy? Did DLH clean out his division? Has he ever been the best in any division?

Sure Tyson was the best heavy for a period of time. The division was an absolute disgrace at that point but yes he was the best.

I am not arguing with you just stating that if you tailor your criteria on what actually constitutes an ATG accordingly you can include or exclude a whole range of fighters from that classification.

[lparm]

Yes, because there's not too many "greats" around. I guess it depends on one's own criteria of "great".

Julio Cesar Chavez beat plenty of good and very good fighters, but I'd say it's a stretch to call Edwin Rosario a "great". He lost (in everyone's eyes) to a near-prime Pernell Whitaker, and was stopped twice by prime/near prime versions of Oscar De La Hoya and Kostya Tszyu when he was old, but he's an ATG.

If you have to beat a prime great to be a great, then it kind of just keeps going back and back. "Well who did he beat? So and so. Who did so and so beat that was great? This mo-fo. Who did this mo-fo beat that was great?". It just goes on and on.

Ok how many "very good" fighters has DLH beaten that were prime? Vargas? Really? how about Quartey? Is he really that good considering he's lost to every major name he fought. How about the gift against Sturm? How about Gatti? or Ruelas? Are they the "very good" fighters you mean? Who are the "very good" fighters DLH beat?

[lparm]

Sure Tyson was the best heavy for a period of time. The division was an absolute disgrace at that point but yes he was the best.

I am not arguing with you just stating that if you tailor your criteria on what actually constitutes an ATG accordingly you can include or exclude a whole range of fighters from that classification.

Even if hw wasn't that great he cleaned it out and left no doubts. If DLH really was an ATG why did he throw it away against Tito? Why did he lose to the smaller Mosley? Could you honestly say SRL would have lost to them?

[IMDAZED]

Ok how many "very good" fighters has DLH beaten that were prime? Vargas? Really? how about Quartey? Is he really that good considering he's lost to every major name he fought. How about the gift against Sturm? How about Gatti? or Ruelas? Are they the "very good" fighters you mean? Who are the "very good" fighters DLH beat?

Arturo Gatti at 147, particularly at the time Oscar fought him, wasn't even good.

[hammerhiem]

For me ATG means that the fighter is either

1. Top 5 p4p for the majority of a decade while fighting other p4p (not necessarily beating them).
2. Cleans out the strongest division in boxing in that era.
3. Huge impact on the sport worldwide - transends the sport.

if you do 2 out of those 3 then you are probably ATG.

How many people can claim 2 of the above? 2-3 per generation at best.

[Thread Stealer]

Ok how many "very good" fighters has DLH beaten that were prime? Vargas? Really? how about Quartey? Is he really that good considering he's lost to every major name he fought. How about the gift against Sturm? How about Gatti? or Ruelas? Are they the "very good" fighters you mean? Who are the "very good" fighters DLH beat?

DLH didn't beat Quartey. The judges beat Quartey, and the 12th round made the memory-impaired boxing fans what a crappy decision that was. As said above by Ken, Gatti wasn't very good at 147.

Vargas, I don't think he was ever the same post-Tito, but still a good fighter.

Hernandez (although he was moving up in weight), Molina (like-wise), Gonzalez, and Ruelas were all good to very good fighters that were prime or near prime that DLH beat.

ATG is very subjective, so I have no problem with those that say DLH is not an ATG.