Muhammad Ali- Was he the greatest heavyweight?

[prtynacan]

Ali may not have been the greatest heavyweight of all time, but Cassius Clay was. It's unfair that Ali is judged by his fights after the 3 year layoff. Watch Clay's fight against Sonny Liston, and then watch Ali dismantle Cleveland Williams - they're things of beauty. I think the Williams fight is the most masterful performance I've ever seen.

I also don't understand how Ali is a *****. Is it his moral opposition to the War in Vietnam? Because it's clearly not in the ring. To me, that shows far more courage than fear - he challenged the system, and sacrficed the best years of his life for his beliefs. There was absolutely no way Ali's life would be in danger if he actually accepted being drafted - he would be used for USO shows and such, just like Joe Louis in WWII.

[Skydog]

No champion can claim they beat as many legends as Ali. Liston, Frazier, Foreman. Maybe Marciano, excpet he beat Louis and Walcott after their prime. Ali fought the 2 best he ever fought (Frazier and Foreman) AFTER his prime. That's what makes Ali so good.

[JohnL]

Ali is the greatest and nobody else is close. Before his exile, his speed and skill made him unbeatable. When he returned, his courage made him unconquerable.

[BAREKNUCKLES]

That is a very good point. Alot of people put Ali as number one because he had the biggest mouth. He's certainly the most famous heavyweight ever and, I think, one of the top champs ever...but he was NOT the best. I would also like to make a couple of other observations:

1. He could be deragatory and hateful. He called Joe Frazier a gorilla because his of his real black skin and he did in front of Marvis Frazier. He said Frazier was ugly, that he was gorilla, and that he was "d-d-d-dumb." That sort of racial hatefullness was uncalled for, for whatever reason, especially not to promote a freakin fight, especially after Frazier had helped him, especially at that uneasy time in our nations history for African Americans, and especially when Frazier's son heard it all. (As a sidenote that also triggers a racial undertone, Ali spoke adamantly about the dirtiness of interracial marriage.)

2. Ali was no rocket scientist. He was a great fighter, but he got used as a pawn by some of the more militant forces that got him to say really ****** things (see interracial comment above) that I hope he didn't actually believe.

Those things have always bothered me about Ali the man. And no, I don't hate him. I think he did alot for the sport and fighting wise he was truly a real good fighter. But I admit that I did feel somewhat vindicated for ole' Smokin' Joe when Frazier asked Ali years later "whose d-d-d-d-dumb now?" "Who w-w-w-won those fights now, Muhammed?" on some radio show. It was inappropiate, but I could understand where Frazier was coming from.

O.K., everyone unleash on me...

Joe Frazier should have grown a little thicker skin. Everybody knows that Ali's antics were used to hype the fight, and it worked. Ali also called Foreman the "mummy" and called Frazier the "Gorilla". There is no way on this green earth these were racial slurs. It's bull**** to even mention them as such. He also rubbed Ernie Shavers head. Was that racial too?

Ali is not dumb, he just suffers from a debillitating disease. Frazier's speech is slurred as we speak. Joe Frazier is not smart enough to realize that the fights with Ali ended years ago. I seriously believe that. The man is clearly diminished.

Ali is number one because no other heavyweight in history had the athletic speed, size, granite chin and ring saavy that Ali showed. He ruled the division from 64 until the late 70's. He was a gold medalist and a credit to the sport of boxing.

I am most certainly saddened by the fact that he took too much punishment in the ring and has to live with the neurological results of it. Many fighters suffer from this.

Muhammad Ali is the greatest of all times.

[butterfly1964]

props to my man bareknuckes, and screw the person who called me an ali nuthugger!!!

[Frazier's 15th round]

Joe Frazier should have grown a little thicker skin. Everybody knows that Ali's antics were used to hype the fight, and it worked. Ali also called Foreman the "mummy" and called Frazier the "Gorilla". There is no way on this green earth these were racial slurs. It's bull**** to even mention them as such. He also rubbed Ernie Shavers head. Was that racial too?

The fact that you can even say that proves how clueless you really are. You have no idea how bad he actually hurt Frazier outside the ring. Here is an example:

In the medieval morality play of Ali's public life, there had to be a demon worthy of his virtue. If one did not exist, Ali and his media friends would create one. At the end of the day, Ali's role in this creation would prove to be the great, unforgivable sin of his life, greater than his mindless draft dodging, the casual humiliation of his five or so wives, his betrayal of Malcolm X, the reckless pursuit of money that would leave him punch drunk, even the abandonment of certain of his children.

That creation was Joe Frazier. In a cruel and unceasing string of abuse, Ali and friends managed to turn this humble, hard-working child of a one-armed South Carolina sharecropper into the most despised man in Black America, a pariah even in his own city of Philadelphia.

As Sports Illustrated's main boxing reporter during Ali's career, Mark Kram witnessed this ritual defamation on a regular basis. He recounts one chilling episode during a run-up to a Frazier fight in a gym packed with Ali fans.

As Kram tells it, after leading the frenzied crowd in chants of "the greatest," Ali then threw out the word, "gorilla" and taunted the audience to respond.

"Joe Frazier," yelled one white guy. "Ape! Ape!" shouted a young blond woman. "Jist ******s," screamed a black guy.

"Ain't that the truth," said Ali to the last comment, dropping to his haunches. "Gorilla," he howled now. "Ugly and smelly." And as Ali lurched ape-like around the ring, his fans jeered the mock Frazier much in the way the Parisian rabble might have jeered Quasimoto.

For the light-skinned Ali and his fans, Joe Frazier was both too black and not black enough. "A little old ****** boy from Philadelphia," Ali taunted him, "who never had a thought in his dumb head 'cept for himself." Even if there were an appropriate response, Frazier had no microphone. Ali owned the media. The psychic blows from this relentless assault bruised Frazier more deeply than all the punches of all the fights he ever fought.

That is just one example of how Ali treated Frazier.

[GasPed]

I have to say, being alive back then, that many people were appalled at Ali's complete lack of respect for sportmanship, and his opponents. He had ridiculous charisma, but when he used it to denigrate his opponents (most of whom were soft-spoken or poor speakers), it was just too much. I, for one, rooted against him in all of the Frazier fights, just because of that arrogance.

It wasn't until he slowed down and became vulnerable himself (not to mention becoming more humble) that he became a sympathetic character.

[schlosser]

Hi fellas. Ali was great, no argument there. But the greatest. Always wonder how good the Langfords, Wills, Jeanettes were and how they'd fit in. Seems only champions get in the lists.

[Mike Tyson Jr.]

nope tyson was. ali is #3

[Da Iceman]

i dont think ali should of talked about frazier like that especially in front of his son but he was better than tyson ali #1 tyson # 50