James Toney a ATG?

[Boogie Nights]

As I said, it's debatable.

looks at the words right next to debatable

and like i said there's another quote, which im looking for now, where you clearly stated he was an all time great

dont take it badly but i still keep seeing those double standards in regard to the old era

in truth james toney resume ****s on both of those guys

[Silencers]

looks at the words right next to debatable

and like i said there's another quote, which im looking for now, where you clearly stated he was an all time great

dont take it badly but i still keep seeing those double standards in regard to the old era

in truth james toney resume ****s on both of those guys

Sure I do.

Sure he does.

I said it's debatable, just as Toney's status is, this thread isn't about Max Baer.

[Stickman]

Toney an ATG? Not even close.

[Boogie Nights]

Sure I do.

Sure he does.

I said it's debatable, just as Toney's status is, this thread isn't about Max Baer.

dont turn it around, you may think or state what you want but your posts prove otherwise

you take a clown like Baer (who i admit had potential) and a solid journyeman who lost to pretty much every premier heavyweight in his division, and went 2-2 even with former light heavyweight ezzard charles, and state that they are all time greats

their names belong up there with ali, fraizer, holyfield, lewis, robinson, GREATS, you put them in that category

do you even keep track of what you write? you toss the word great around like a beach ball

if you can print walcott name next to ali, then what does it make ali, who accomplished a ****load more than any of those 2 guys? SUPER-GREAT?

[Silencers]

dont turn it around, you may think or state what you want but your posts prove otherwise

you take a clown like Baer (who i admit had potential) and a solid journyeman who lost to pretty much every premier heavyweight in his division, and went 2-2 even with former light heavyweight ezzard charles, and state that they are all time greats

their names belong up there with ali, fraizer, holyfield, lewis, robinson, GREATS, you put them in that category

do you even keep track of what you write? you toss the word great around like a beach ball

if you can print walcott name next to ali, then what does it make ali, who accomplished a ****load more than any of those 2 guys? SUPER-GREAT?

I'm not going to get into this with you again.

I said Baer was debatable but I admit I said yes after I said it was debatable I can see why he isn't great but he wasn't a journeyman and I didn't say outright he was an ATG, Walcott is IMO great. That's all I got to say about that.

If I tossed that word around I would be saying Toney is great now wouldn't I?

Don't forget about my double standards.

[Boogie Nights]

I'm not going to get into this with you again.

I said Baer was debatable but I admit I said yes after I said it was debatable I can see why he isn't great but he wasn't a journeyman, Walcott is IMO great. That's all I got to say about that.

If I tossed that word around I would be saying Toney is great now wouldn't I?

Don't forget about my double standards.

that says it, you seem to have some advanced criteria that we dont know about, for evaluating greatness

your theory on it is

walcott is great because he was way ahead of his time

holyfield was great but tyson wasnt...the difference holyfield was willing to fight guys and tyson wasnt

i gotta say, no offense, but....that's some way to look at greatness..

and you do have double standards no need to approach this subject sarcastically, i know it's a sensitive material for you

[abadger]

All Time Great is a pretty big label to put on someone, by definition it implies that they achieved something comparable only with a very select few, or even achieved something noone else ever has. For a boxer this probably means 1) an incredible record and/or 2) peerless skill, and ideally both.

Without doubt James Toney achieved some pretty incredible things. He went 5 years and 40 fights undefeated winning world titles at middleweight and super middleweight along the way. He did so with an activity rate that was basically unthinkable for his era. Following two defeats he embarked on what you could call a second career between light heavyweight and heavyweight, winning titles at LHW and cruiser, maintaining an impressive, if not undefeated winning record despite being long out of prime for most of that period. He is still boxing at what by any standards remains a high if not genuinely elite level today. Pretty impressive stuff on the record front....

As for Toney's skill level, the issue is a little more debateable. Without a single doubt Toney was an excellent boxer. Like his activity rate, his style is a throwback to an earlier era relying on naked agression and excellent defensive technique. On several ocassions throughout his career he showed genuinely incredible tactical judgement and fighting heart. Who could forget his patient waiting game allowing Michael Nunn to tire before blasting him out in the eleventh round when behind on the cards, or his timely destruction of Tim Littles when badly cut and having a single round to find a knockout, which he duly did. If legends are not made of these type of performances then what are they made of?

And yet...most boxing fans will still hesitate a moment when asked if James Toney is an ATG. Something about his career causes them to hold back a moment and question if what the man did is really deserving of a place at boxings highest table. After consideration some will rule in Toney's favour, but plenty too will not, and there are plenty of good reasons for this:

The first question mark against Toney's all time status is a common one, his quality of opposition. All first ballot ATGs like Leonard, Hagler and Ali have one thing in common, wins or at least fights against fellow ATGs on their record. Leonard had Hagler and each other as well as Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran. Ali has a virtual whose who of modern(ish) heavyweight greats. Who does James Toney have? James Toney has Roy Jones, a peerlessly skilled but by no means first ballot ATG himself, and thats it. One. And he lost to him badly when in his absolute prime. Throw in the fact that although Toney did fight a lot of good fighters, his three best wins are widely regarded as being against the talented but flawed Michael Nunn, an old Iran Barkley and the good but not great cruiserweight Vasily Jirov and it is easy to see why we have a pretty large question mark number 1.

Of course, James Toney's standard of opposition is not his own fault, you can only beat the guys who are there to be beaten and surely he shouldn't be penalised based solely on this. Fair enough some would say, but others would say that when discussing ATG status, sorry but thats just the way the cookie crumbles. Whichever side of that particular issue you lie on, there are still more reasons to question Toney as an ATG that have nothing to do with Toney's opposition and everything to do with the man himself.

James Toney has an attitude problem. Its a sterotyped cliche, but we're not talking about his legendarily pugnacious personality, we're talking about his attitude to his career. For many of his fights, throughout his career, James Toney was not the best that James Toney can be. he would often come into the ring overweight, out of shape, undertrained and often outright fat, and on several occassions it cost him an L and James Toney has no-one to blame but himself. A true ATG would have beaten Montell Griffin in 1995 and 1996 wouldn't he? And how could an ATG lose to Drake Thadzi?

In actual fact these criticisms are a little harsh, Griffin was by no means a bad fighter, but it is these losses in particular that highlight the reason why Toney's ATG status is in question: If he'd won those three fights he'd be an absolute ATG shoe-in. If he'd won them, then between 1989 and 2006, between middleweight and heavyweight, James Toney's single solitary loss would be against Roy Jones, the greatest fighter of the era. Incredible. But that's not the way it turned out and for many observers it is pretty hard to rank someone as an ATG when it is obvious that they could have achieved so much more. James Toney, with a little better application, with a little more effort, could have had that incredible record, he should have had that incredible record. But he doesn't, and its his own fault. How can you give a guy the highest possible honour when he didn't even live up to his own potential?

But for all this talk and speculation, we haven't answered the question. Is James Toney an ATG? Well, put it like this. James Toney is still an active boxer. It is unlikely in the extreme that anything he does from here on in will add anything appreciable to his legacy, but the fact is that his era is not even over. It should be obvious to anyone who has read this far that one thing he indisputably is, is a modern great. It's plainly obvious for all to see. His all time status, right now is not so sure. The man still boxes so we fans have not yet acquired enough distance from his career to see it in the clear 20/20 vision of hindsight. its starting to come into focus, but its not quite there yet. But we can talk about it, and we are, and the talking is going to continue long past the time that James Toney is retired. The question of whether he is an All Time Great right now has only one true answer: it's debateable. But with ATG status, just having it debated at all is one hell of a good start....

[Silencers]

that says it, you seem to have some advanced criteria that we dont know about, for evaluating greatness

your theory on it is

walcott is great because he was way ahead of his time

holyfield was great but tyson wasnt...the difference holyfield was willing to fight guys and tyson wasnt

i gotta say, no offense, but....that's some way to look at greatness..

and you do have double standards no need to approach this subject sarcastically, i know it's a sensitive material for you

I really don't care what you think about me or my "double standards", I won't get into a debate with you that would go round and round and round and take up hours of my time

[Kball15]

Of coarse he is.

He's on the list of ATG, he may not be at the top of the last, but he is certainly on it

[Boogie Nights]

I really don't care what you think about me or my "double standards", I won't get into a debate with you that would go round and round and round and take up hours of my time

you right it's hard to keep a debate going in your favor when you been exposed and proved wrong

you may not care what i think, which is fair, i sure as hell dont care about the crap you think or post

but perhaps

you should look at the poll numbers to get a better picture, and for the record i havent voted yet. LOL