US Boxing Bias - Worst In The World?

[Dynamite Kid]

just out of interest abadger have u seen Jean Marc Moremech fight before ? if not i suggest u watch his 2 fights with O'Niel Bell if u think he is limited Competition he is a tough strong durable guy with plenty of heart

[abadger]

u need to take a reallity check pal no one is comparing Haye to Joe that is not what the thread is about ,Tunney & yourself just thought it was a good idea to dismiss chiyoko because he is a Haye fan & he is criticising Joe

why cant he discredit Joe and be a Haye fan ? one of his favourite fighters does not have to better than Joe Calzaghe before he can criticise him or be a fan of Haye

see this is the type of stuff that pisses me off proper nuthuggery

I did not dismiss Chiyoko, I responded to many of his threads, as I just have now. That had nothing to do with the fact he liked Haye and everything to his description of Joe as an average fighter. In fact the only thing I said about Haye to him was that I didn't understand how he could like Haye but dislike Calzaghe based on Calzaghe's record alone, as p4p as it were, Calzaghe's is better. I also took your point that Haye has more time to prove himself. In fact the only person I have really discussed David Haye with is you. I probably shouldn't have said Haye hasn't beaten anyone, that was an oversimplification, he is the Cruiser champ and deserves respect for that, but I think it is a fair observation that Haye, at this point, is not quite in Calzaghe's class as a boxer.

Now I find myself being embroiled in an argument with you where I am being called a Calzaghe nuthugger, merely because I'm not particularly a Haye fan. I am under no obligation to like every boxer you want me to like, just as no-one is obliged to like Calzaghe if they don't want to. I have tried at least to be objective with my arguments, unlike Chiyoko did at first, and if you think that the observation that Haye is not as good as Calzaghe is not objective, then you need to get some glasses.

I do not hate David Haye, I do not think people are ****** for being his fans, I do however reserve the right to question any fan who claims they dislike Calzaghe because of his supposedly poor record, who then turns around and says they do like David Haye. The logic simply does not stack up and if you think it does then you are wrong.

[Easy-E]

I've been discussing Joe Calzaghe in another thread, and the usual accusations of UK bias were raised by US posters, I think US posters sometimes neglect to realise quite how biased they themselves are, here are my thoughts on the subject:

Americans are worse than the rest of the world when it comes to overestimating their own fighters, although I accept that this can often include boxers who box out of America too, and include Mexicans, Puerto Ricans etc.

It's not so much national pride that you have, more a belief that the entire world of boxing is basically the US and an at times amazing disregard for other fighters. Virtually every single elite fighter you have, once they pass a certain point in their careers is acclaimed as a legend, no matter how often they actually lose. Look at Hopkins, Jones, Winky, Trinidad, Toney, even Tarver! At times US fans act like these guys never lost a fight in their life,
continually saying, your guy will never beat my amazing legendary legend (even though he's lost his last two fights!)

You certainly don't extend this incredible willingness to forgive defeats to non-US and particularly European fighters. Every loss by a European proves beyond all reasonable doubt that he is a bum!

So its not UK style national pride that you have exactly, more a huge and overweaning national sense of entitlement and presumed superiority, combined with an almost wilful disregard for the achievements of boxers from any other nation.

Not trying to stir anything up, just saying!

I would say some fans from the UK are far worse, e****ially when I think about the way they hero worshipped Lennox, Hamed, and recently, Hatton and Calzaghe. It is quite hilarious to see their reaction after Hatton was demolished by Floyd.

However, on this forum, the most biased people are Antionio Margarito fans.

[Dynamite Kid]

I did not dismiss Chiyoko, I responded to many of his threads, as I just have now. That had nothing to do with the fact he liked Haye and everything to his description of Joe as an average fighter. In fact the only thing I said about Haye to him was that I didn't understand how he could like Haye but dislike Calzaghe based on Calzaghe's record alone, as p4p as it were, Calzaghe's is better. I also took your point that Haye has more time to prove himself. In fact the only person I have really discussed David Haye with is you. I probably shouldn't have said Haye hasn't beaten anyone, that was an oversimplification, he is the Cruiser champ and deserves respect for that, but I think it is a fair observation that Haye, at this point, is not quite in Calzaghe's class as a boxer.

Now I find myself being embroiled in an argument with you where I am being called a Calzaghe nuthugger, merely because I'm not particularly a Haye fan. I am under no obligation to like every boxer you want me to like, just as no-one is obliged to like Calzaghe if they don't want to. I have tried at least to be objective with my arguments, unlike Chiyoko did at first, and if you think that the observation that Haye is not as good as Calzaghe is not objective, then you need to get some glasses.

I do not hate David Haye, I do not think people are ****** for being his fans, I do however reserve the right to question any fan who claims they dislike Calzaghe because of his supposedly poor record, who then turns around and says they do like David Haye. The logic simply does not stack up and if you think it does then you are wrong.

u dont have to be a fan of a fighter or have respect for a fighter [Joe Calzaghe ] because he is more succesffull than somebody you enjoy watching

im a Terry Norris fan & he was a very good 154lb fighter but he was koed more than once but if i chose to criticise Wlads chin am i not allowed to do that ,of coarse i am i enjoyed watching Terry Norris fight i dont really like Wlads style

your favourite fighters entertain u they dont have to be the most successfull fighter ,im sure plenty of Arturo Gatti fans would criticse the way Floyd Fights and praise the way Gattoi fights ,it dont mean there not allowed cause Gatti foguht like punching bag & Floyd is more sensible

thier is a quite obvious reason Haye record is not as good as Joe's

[tyson]

I feel sorry for all of you...

[Dynamite Kid]

Hopefull this clears up the reason Calzaghe has better Resume than Haye ,allthough it should be commonsense that a young fighter is gonna have lesser credentials than someone who has had nearly twice as many fights and been a pro for 9 years longer


Joe Calzaghe 36

Pro Debut 1993-10-01

won 45 (KO 32) + lost 0 (KO 0) + drawn 0 = 45


David Haye 27

Pro Debut 2002-12-08

won 21 (KO 20) + lost 1 (KO 1) + drawn 0 = 22

[S A M U R A I]

I did not dismiss Chiyoko, I responded to many of his threads, as I just have now. That had nothing to do with the fact he liked Haye and everything to his description of Joe as an average fighter. In fact the only thing I said about Haye to him was that I didn't understand how he could like Haye but dislike Calzaghe based on Calzaghe's record alone, as p4p as it were, Calzaghe's is better. I also took your point that Haye has more time to prove himself. In fact the only person I have really discussed David Haye with is you. I probably shouldn't have said Haye hasn't beaten anyone, that was an oversimplification, he is the Cruiser champ and deserves respect for that, but I think it is a fair observation that Haye, at this point, is not quite in Calzaghe's class as a boxer.

Now I find myself being embroiled in an argument with you where I am being called a Calzaghe nuthugger, merely because I'm not particularly a Haye fan. I am under no obligation to like every boxer you want me to like, just as no-one is obliged to like Calzaghe if they don't want to. I have tried at least to be objective with my arguments, unlike Chiyoko did at first, and if you think that the observation that Haye is not as good as Calzaghe is not objective, then you need to get some glasses.

I do not hate David Haye, I do not think people are ****** for being his fans, I do however reserve the right to question any fan who claims they dislike Calzaghe because of his supposedly poor record, who then turns around and says they do like David Haye. The logic simply does not stack up and if you think it does then you are wrong.

I wouldn't take anything Chiyoko says seriously anyway man, he reckons SRR wasn't as good as Mayweather "because SRR has been knocked down more". Of course, when you've had literally 5 times as many fights (202 pro fights, from lightweight to light heavyweight) you tend to get knocked down sometimes...





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[abadger]

u dont have to be a fan of a fighter or have respect for a fighter [Joe Calzaghe ] because he is more succesffull than somebody you enjoy watching
im a Terry Norris fan & he was a very good 154lb fighter but he was koed more than once but if i chose to criticise Wlads chin am i not allowed to do that ,of coarse i am i enjoyed watching Terry Norris fight i dont really like Wlads style

your favourite fighters entertain u they dont have to be the most successfull fighter ,im sure plenty of Arturo Gatti fans would criticse the way Floyd Fights and praise the way Gattoi fights ,it dont mean there not allowed cause Gatti foguht like punching bag & Floyd is more sensible

thier is a quite obvious reason Haye record is not as good as Joe's

I never said you did. Its a personal choice. Look, you just seem to be persuing for the sake of it now. I agree with most of your opinions about the issue, you just seem to have got the idea in your head that I have some sort of hatred of Haye fans, I don't.

[bsrizpac]

OK, more reasonable this time, but still! You essentially seem to expect Joe Calzaghe to fight and defeat nothing but prime champions! You are literally trying to discredit his entire career! As I have said elsewhere, every elite boxer faces a great many boxers not at the elite level, it is the nature of being elite. The time we found out that fighters like Reid, Woodhall, Veit, Mitchell, Brewer and Lacy were not at the elite level was when they fought Calzaghe, who was.

Every single boxer faces fighters like these and worse, check Hopkins and Jones records and you'll see exactly the same thing. I am in broad agreement with the spirit of your post, but rather than saying that Calzaghe is an 'ordinary' fighter, you should be saying he is a 'very good' fighter, and then extend that clasification to fighters like Winky and Hopkins, Jones I concede was something special. I have never described Joe as a legend, but he is, indisputably, one of the best boxers on earth right now, and one of the best ever at his weight. That doesn't make him some sort of superhuman, just a 'very good' boxer.

How about he fight just one prime champion? Just one of any value?

Also lmao@trying to discredit hopkins. Right. Because 2 years ago he wouldn't have beaten Joe right?

As far as Jones, you "concede" he's something "special". Concede? Maybe you are the one with the anti US bias.

[abadger]

I feel sorry for all of you...

At this point I feel sorry for myself. I wanted it to just be a discussion thread, and yet here we are, debating a fighters resume.

Fighter's resumes are like the black hole of boxingscene, impossible to escape!