what if: James Toney vs. Joe Calzaghe @ 168 (Prime for prime)

[slicksouthpaw16]

That's a good point. It seems that the only Calzaghe that exists is the slightly subdued one we saw v Hopkins.

Thats because he finally fought a pound for pound quality fighter and luckily, he was past his prime. Peak Hopkins would have beaten Calzaghe in my opinion. You have to show your dominance against top opposition or you could end up being average, the way Calzaghe looked against Hopkins.

[abadger]

I didn't say that. I said that i personally didn't overestimate him. How can you be overrated when you haven't ducked any fighter ever and captured a major belt in every weight class from middleweight up? Even heavyweight.

You can't overestimate a legend and thats what Toney is

You did say that ^^.

And you just answered your own question. Any fighter can be overrated, and it happens the moment we start describing them as legends.

Look, my only point, and the one we started out debating is simply that I think prime for prime Calzaghe beats Toney and you don't. At the end of the day, its opinion and no-one can say for sure either way. We've already outlined our arguments so we'll have to agree to disagree.

As for James Toney being a legend, that's your opinion again, I suppose if he is in your eyes then he is. I prefer not to describe any fighter as a legend, but I can recognise that Toney was once a very talented fighter and has achieved a lot. You say you like Joe, so I hope you can do the same.
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Chevrolet Task Force

[Pullcounter]

prime toney whups calzaghe.

[SHB]

It'd be ugly as hell. Funny thing is nobody at the time thought Toney was half as good as many seem to now think he was.

[abadger]

Thats because he finally fought a pound for pound quality fighter and luckily, he was past his prime. Peak Hopkins would have beaten Calzaghe in my opinion. You have to show your dominance against top opposition or you could end up being average, the way Calzaghe looked against Hopkins.

Like Toney did against Jones right? He lost AND looked ordinary.

Calzaghe at least won.

I know you're now going to say "but that was Jones, and Toney was out of shape etc etc."

Well I'm sorry, but you can't have one set of standards for one fighter and another for someone else.
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Model F

[IMDAZED]

I get the sense not a lot of posters actually witnessed James Toney in his prime. Sure, you can go back and watch tapes but you have to put each fight in its context - which is hard to do 15 years later.

I heard someone here mention that Toney wasn't too bright. On the contrary, Toney is one of the smartest fighters of the past 20 years - a true student of the game. A masterful boxer with underrated power, great defense, perhaps the best inside game boxing's seen since who knows and a chin that was as solid as it gets. And he fought everyone.

Nunn
Johnson
McCallum
Barkley

All four of those guys beat every single person on Joe Calzaghe's resume - at the time he fought them. A blowout loss to a SMW Jones shouldn't take away from what Toney accomplished - everybody got blown out by Jones at 168. But anyone who saw "Lights Out" pick apart - and beat the life out of - a young, hungry, undefeated cruiser champ in Vasily Jirov knows just how good a fighter he is; one of the greats of our time. My guess is he outworks (yes, outworks!) Calzaghe on the inside, landing the cleaner shots for a full twelve and takes a clear UD.

[IMDAZED]

It'd be ugly as hell. Funny thing is nobody at the time thought Toney was half as good as many seem to now think he was.

Wow...this is an absolute false statement.

44-0...lowest ranking on ANY pound for pound list was #3...yet, no one thought he was half as good as many seem to now think he was?

Sure.

[daggum]

calzaghe vs james obede toney is a more competitive match

[SHB]

Wow...this is an absolute false statement.

44-0...lowest ranking on ANY pound for pound list was #3...yet, no one thought he was half as good as many seem to now think he was?

Sure.

Yes, sure. He's halfway between Sugar Ray Robinson and God if you read half the recent comments about him.

[IMDAZED]

Yes, sure. He's halfway between Sugar Ray Robinson and God if you read half the recent comments about him.

I fail to see your point. I've read a lot of misinformed garbage on these boards - does that mean it's the general consensus?

Bottom line, Toney was considered by many to be arguably the world's best fighter - no lower than #3 when he reigned over the SMW division. He was 44-0 and fought a who's who of middle and super middles. So again, he was regarded FAR higher back in the early 90's than is the case now.

End of story.