what if: James Toney vs. Joe Calzaghe @ 168 (Prime for prime)

[pins0099]

I gotta go Toney by KO. He had some serious power at his lower weights.

Bigger than Kessler? Mitchell??.....if so then not by much. Calzaghe has never taken more than 2 or 3 count. Never even looked like getting KO'd.

Would be a very tight one, Toney has an awesome defense Calz would struggle to get through, but if the same Calzaghe turns up as on the Lacy night or Kessler night, then I think Toney would have a problem, ditto if the same Toney turns up that did against Nunn. But prime for prime, i.e. the best I've ever seen Calzaghe in the complete dominance of Lacy, I dont think even Toney could have coped with that Calzaghe.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Toney would win a decision. He is the harder puncher, faster, better technical, better defensively and better out boxer of the two. Joe would bring nothing to the table that Toney hasn't see before. Pressure and work rate? Jirov is a southpaw, a harder puncher than Calzaghe and brought educated pressure and Toney was still able to get the better of him, despite him being past his natural weight class and out of physical shape.Calzaghe has too many flaws like bad balance after he throws, slapping punches ect and Toney has the style to capitalize. He is a great pure boxer with counter punching skill, which is the style that Calzaghe wouldn't want to fight. Toney is a brilliant counter puncher off of the ropes and thats exactly the spot where Calzaghe gets off balance and starts to flurry in slaps, that wouldn't work well as he would be countered with short right hands and left hooks to the head and body. He was open to every counter and lead right hand that Hopkins threw, he would be countered by Toney but harder and faster, and would back Calzaghe up and get his respect. James has superior inside game to everyone that Joe has fought. He would be too much at 100%.

[Left2body]

HAHA at the guys who said Calz via KO/Stoppage.....To those guys I have a suggestion, stop taking drugs, LSD can cause serious hallucinations and lead to degenerative brain function.

Toney now can be outworked and outpointed but a prime focused Toney had a very good work rate and was super slick. I dont see anywhere in this fight where Calz can win....outside game countered and JT's defense would make the very few shots land cleanly. Inside......does Calz even want to go there. That shoe shine **** on the inside is not working on Toney who would slice Calz up.

Calz doesn't have enough power to make JT respect him. JT would land more shots, harder shots and CLEANER shots all night. Calz doesn't even have a better chin than JT at BEST Calz fans can claim they have equal chins but Toney has by far the more power.

[Run]

Toney would win a decision. He is the harder puncher, faster, better technical, better defensively and better out boxer of the two. Joe would bring nothing to the table that Toney hasn't see before. Pressure and work rate? Jirov is a southpaw, a harder puncher than Calzaghe and brought educated pressure and Toney was still able to get the better of him, despite him being past his natural weight class and out of physical shape.Calzaghe has too many flaws like bad balance after he throws, slapping punches ect and Toney has the style to capitalize. He is a great pure boxer with counter punching skill, which is the style that Calzaghe wouldn't want to fight. Toney is a brilliant counter puncher off of the ropes and thats exactly the spot where Calzaghe gets off balance and starts to flurry in slaps, that wouldn't work well as he would be countered with short right hands and left hooks to the head and body. He was open to every counter and lead right hand that Hopkins threw, he would be countered by Toney but harder and faster, and would back Calzaghe up and get his respect. James has superior inside game to everyone that Joe has fought. He would be too much at 100%.

Yeah.

I mean lol. The version of Jirov alone around that era would put Calzaghe in a struggle between life and death literally.

Toney fought an insanely brilliant fight.



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[abadger]

This forum is in real trouble, last week i had a calzaghe fan tell me he was like Marvin Haggler.

This week i got someone telling the same calzaghe who couldnt land on a 43 year bernard hopkins, is gonna outthink a prime james toney.

Then again, forums are for opinions i guess, i just dont how these people apply logic.

Once again, Joe Calzaghe has never been beaten by anyone, unlike James Toney. I could use similar logic to yours and say "How is Joe Calzaghe, who has never been beaten, going to get beat by James Toney?" It wouldn't be a strong argument, but it would be as strong as yours.

Whoever said Calzaghe was like Marvin Hagler was wrong, but that doesn't mean all Calzaghe fans are wrong too. You may not like Calzaghe, but you need to open your eyes and se him for the talented, and above all winning boxer he is. You, like many on this forum seem to make the implicit assumption that your favourite US fighters, like Toney, are de facto "good", whereas fighters like Calzaghe constantly have to prove themselves. You say the forum is in trouble because of the opinions of Calzaghe fans, but if anything it is the other way around. Because you cannot credit Calzaghe you cast your net far and wide and you always find some fighter who would beat Calzaghe, in your eyes because simply because of who that fighter is, but in reality because you like that fighter and dislike Calzaghe. Your position is the antithesis of reasonable.

As for the question of how/if Calzaghe could beat SMW Toney, by outthinking him or otherwise: I have not seen as much of Toney as I have of Calzaghe but if Joe faced the Toney we saw against Roy Jones he would beat him all day long. That Toney was slow, one dimensional and had no clue what to change up to give himself a chance against Roy. Calzaghe would comfortably outpoint him. You may argue that Toney only looked that way by comparison to Roy, but that is just not true, he was all the things I say in that fight if you watch with honest eyes and mind.

Joe Calzaghe has been fighting and beating boxers for 45 fights as a pro and 20+ as champ. In a way I think it is complimentary to him that the only fights people talk about him losing are ones that never happened, against opponents he would probably have beaten anyway. RJJ would probably have been a different story, but the fact remains that at this point, the only boxer who would beat Calzaghe exists only in the imagination of his detractors.
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[mojack]

I gotta go Toney by KO. He had some serious power at his lower weights.

But Calzaghes never been KO'd. He's got a chin of iron.
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[slicksouthpaw16]

As for the question of how/if Calzaghe could beat SMW Toney, by outthinking him or otherwise: I have not seen as much of Toney as I have of Calzaghe but if Joe faced the Toney we saw against Roy Jones he would beat him all day long. That Toney was slow, one dimensional and had no clue what to change up to give himself a chance against Roy. Calzaghe would comfortably outpoint him. You may argue that Toney only looked that way by comparison to Roy, but that is just not true, he was all the things I say in that fight if you watch with honest eyes and mind.
.

Ok, you look at one fight of Toney when he was out of shape, slow, unprepared and killing himself to make weight, and thats how you sum of this fight? Please, Toney was one of the fastest, most tough, craftiest counter punchers/boxers of the 90s. An in shape Toney would have had a shot at beating Jones and he would surely beat Calzaghe. Out think Toney? Please. Toney is a throw back and one of the most brilliant ring technitions in the history of the sport. When he came in prepared, he would give anyone in history fits and would have a shot at beating them. 2 weeks before the fight against Jones, he weighed in at 214 LBs and had to be hooked up to Ivs when he was in his dressing room so he wouldn't pass out. Also, in case you haven't noticed, this is a prime Roy Jones that we are talking about. Calzaghe does not have the hand speed of a peak Jones, power, awkwardness, skill ect. Calzaghe is a good fighter and the greatest super middle, but you can't compare him to peak Roy. Roy had every advantage over Calzaghe and then some.

This is not Toney at his best shape, but he displays his brilliant counter punching ability and inside fighting.




Toney at his best. Check out the hand speed, the body work, combination punching and skill of a peak James Toney.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Once again, Joe Calzaghe has never been beaten by anyone, unlike James Toney.

This quote from you is just laughable. Especially since Calzaghe's resume is no where near as good as Toney's and even when Toney was at super middleweight, his record was still better than Calzaghe's. Therefore, how can judge Toney for losing when his resume is by far superior? Does Calzaghe have great names like a peak unbeaten Michael Nunn on his record? Mike Maccalum ect? Did Calzaghe go up in weight and beat the best cruiser weight champion at that time that was unbeaten and feared by many? Jirov was a southpaw, brutal body punches, fast hands/combinations and he brought educated pressure so like i have said, Joe wouldn't bring anything that Toney hasn't seen before. Toney would have a field day with timing those wide looping shots from Calzaghe and taking advantage of his horrible balance after he trows.

[vBTube]66qLo0fVyxg[/vBTube]

[abadger]

Ok, you look at one fight of Toney when he was out of shape, slow, unprepared and killing himself to make weight, and thats how you sum of this fight? Please, Toney was one of the fastest, most tough, craftiest counter punchers/boxers of the 90s. An in shape Toney would have had a shot at beating Jones and he would surely beat Calzaghe. Out think Toney? Please. Toney is a throw back and one of the most brilliant ring technitions in the history of the sport. When he came in prepared, he would give anyone in history fits and would have a shot at beating them. 2 weeks before the fight against Jones, he weighed in at 214 LBs and had to be hooked up to Ivs when he was in his dressing room so he wouldn't pass out. Also, in case you haven't noticed, this is a prime Roy Jones that we are talking about. Calzaghe does not have the hand speed of a peak Jones, power, awkwardness, skill ect. Calzaghe is a good fighter and the greatest super middle, but you can't compare him to peak Roy. Roy had every advantage over Calzaghe and then some.

...CUT...

Which is exactly what you did in your analysis of Calzaghe, taking the one recent fight he looked even close to ordinary (Hopkins) and using that as the basis for saying he would "never" beat Toney.

Look, I know James Toney was a good fighter, very nice defensively and with lots of power, but I believe you are overestimating him, and too prepared to make excuses for him. He was one of the best SMWs of his era, but I can't agree he would "give anyone in history fits". You know, all fans can tend to overestimate their favourites and surely you can see that maybe you are doing that here. Maybe I am overestimating Calzaghe too. For me, a prime Calzaghe would outpoint Toney in a similar way to Roy, except rather than potshotting behind a crisp jab, Calzaghe would get the points the way he usually does, by outworking his opponent and landing lots of nice combinations, particularly effective as the fight goes into the later rounds. Remember, Joe is usually a much more effective puncher than we saw against Hopkins.

I can totally see why you think Toney could beat him though, based on Toney's Hopkins-like defensive skills. That is a reasonable argument, but for me Hopkins derived his advantage from his clinching more than his counterpunching, and Toney was a very technical defensive boxer, not the clinch monster that Hopkins was in that fight.

As for Joe and Roy, I agree Roy was on a different planet in terms of his handspeed and ring movement. Probably he beats Calzaghe prime for prime. I could imagine Calzaghe beating him by getting in his face as much as possible and turning it into a war, as Roy really didn't like to have to really fight, but I have my doubts as to whether Calzaghe would be able to make that war happen.

I'd have liked to have seen all these fights though.
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[slicksouthpaw16]

Which is exactly what you did in your analysis of Calzaghe, taking the one recent fight he looked even close to ordinary (Hopkins) and using that as the basis for saying he would "never" beat Toney.

Yes, it was the first fight where Calzaghe faced a great fighter that was a throw back to the greats and used old moves and tactics. Am i suppose to take what he did against the 2 one dimensional fighters that are the best prime fighters on his resume, Lacy and Kessler? Those fights wouldn't tell me anything because those guys are one way and don't have a lot in their repertoire. Toney has all of those Hopkins like attributes and some may say that he has more, he is certainly more experienced than Hopkins, fought better line of fighters than Bernard and accomplished more in the sport.
Calzaghe has always had bad balance, he has always threw short flurrying pitter pat shots and thats the wrong things to do when you are facing someone that is as technically correct as peak Toney. A perfect example is in that video of him fighting Jirov, he was about to set up a stoppage and he was on the ropes when he did it. The ropes is where Calzaghe starts to get his little volume punches at and the same place that he was being countered by Hopkins at.Toney counters extremely well off of the ropes and Calzaghe is completely vulnerable to right hand counters. Hopkins exposed this and when you think about it, he was the only effective elusive counter puncher than Calzaghe has faced.

Look, I know James Toney was a good fighter, very nice defensively and with lots of power, but I believe you are overestimating him, and too prepared to make excuses for him. He was one of the best SMWs of his era, but I can't agree he would "give anyone in history fits". You know, all fans can tend to overestimate their favourites and surely you can see that maybe you are doing that here. Maybe I am overestimating Calzaghe too. For me, a prime Calzaghe would outpoint Toney in a similar way to Roy, except rather than potshotting behind a crisp jab, Calzaghe would get the points the way he usually does, by outworking his opponent and landing lots of nice combinations, particularly effective as the fight goes into the later rounds. Remember, Joe is usually a much more effective puncher than we saw against Hopkins.

You can't overestimate a legend and thats what Toney is. In a few years when he is good and retired, then he will finally get his respect. He is the only man to go up from middleweight and capture a Major belt in every division on his way up. Also, Joe was an effective puncher before Hopkins because he never fought a fighter that had the ability to capitalize on his mistakes the way Bernard did. He will not be able to flurry and land volume punches on Toney because he would be countered with harder and more effective punches. Joe would be the aggressor and would bring the fight to Toney, the way he did Hopkins because James is a natural counter puncher. Calzaghe stated in many interviews that he likes when his opponents come foward. Which would mean that he would be vulnerable to counters because he is wide open when he is flurrying off of the ropes and thats the spot where Toney usually picks his spots.

Also, point to me a middleweight in history that Toney wouldn't give fit to. He would be a problem to any fighter in history in my opinion.