what if: James Toney vs. Joe Calzaghe @ 168 (Prime for prime)

[superchamp]

But.....you can't just excuse Toney's bad performances that occurred during his prime and say they don't count. You can't. Toney handed in those performances so he is that fighter.

Now...I'm not saying that James Toney is a bad fighter at all, he was quality, but I'll take the Calzaghe that beat Kessler over the Toney that beat Barkley absolutely any day of the week. If you're looking for a single performance to show off your fighter's greatness, Joe wins that one hands down. His performance was better and his opposition was better.

Yes...I know prime for prime Barkley > Kessler, but that barkley was shot.

Anyway, they were both good and I like them both, just think Calzaghe was better is all.

If that's the case then you have to count the performances Joe handed in against Robin Reid and Sakio Bika (which he looked absolutely terrible in, and it was much closer than it should have been).

Prime James Toney would have looked 1000 times better against the 43 year-old hopkins tha Calzaghe fought. I think he would have likely stopped him.

Toney accomplished more by the time he was 26 than Calzaghe accomplished in his whole career when you really think about it.

[slicksouthpaw16]

[QUOTE=abadger;3520248]

Joe v Kessler > Toney v Barkley IMO

Barkley was shot, and Joe's performance was better than Toney's. I think so anyway. It was an awesome display of both defensive and offensive excellence.

Barkely wasn't shot, he was the IBF super middleweight champion and was still very dangerous. Toney dominated every round and stopped Barkely, who was better than both Lacy and Kessler. Calzaghe won 6 rounds against Kessler. Toney won all 10 against Iran and stopped him.

[superchamp]

and Mike McCallum was only 35/36 the first 2 times James Toney fought him (when he was 23).

[abadger]

[QUOTE=slicksouthpaw16;3520270]

Barkely wasn't shot, he was the IBF super middleweight champion and was still very dangerous. Toney dominated every round and stopped Barkely, who was better than both Lacy and Kessler. Calzaghe won 6 rounds against Kessler. Toney won all 10 against Iran and stopped him.

Calzaghe whooped Kessler in that fight, probably taking every round after R4 IMO. Kessler was a younger, prime, two belt champ, widely agreed to be the next best in the division.

Barkley was horribly shot. He couldn't even see! At one point he walked into the wrong corner and throughout the fight his trainers were spraying him with water after the round bell to guide him to them! He had to lean on Toney just to know where he was. Barkley also had no stamina whatsoever and for most of the fight was just a heavybag leaning on James. No wonder James beat him easy!

Anyway, as I said, both great fighters, but we ain't gonna change each other's minds are we?

[TheGreatA]

Barkley was horribly shot. He couldn't even see! At one point he walked into the wrong corner and throughout the fight his trainers were spraying him with water after the round bell to guide him to them! He had to lean on Toney just to know where he was. Barkley also had no stamina whatsoever and for most of the fight was just a heavybag leaning on James. No wonder James beat him easy!

You can talk about Barkley being shot but he was a champion in two different divisions at that point, coming off a brutal knockout win over the 2-division champion Darrin Van Horn and a decision win over the LHW champion Thomas Hearns, a fight he threw 1000 punches in...

Perhaps Barkley had detoriated by that rather short time but Mikkel Kessler has all the excuses in the world for his fight with Calzaghe as well, his right hand was broken, his close friend and manager was sent to the hospital, he was fighting in Calzaghe's hometown, the gameplan was all wrong, etc.

The Kessler win for the most part depends on how Kessler will do in the future as he was unproven against top opposition prior to his fight with Calzaghe.
He did have impressive performances against the likes of Andrade and Beyer but nothing that puts him at the level of Toney, Calzaghe, Hopkins, Nunn or even Barkley in my opinion.

[superchamp]

By the time of James Toney's 1st loss (to Roy Jones in 1994), in only his 5th year as a pro and at 26 years of age, he had already amassed a record of 44-0-2, was a 2 division champion and had beaten:

Undefeated reigning middleweight champion/p4p contender Michael Nunn (36-0)
Undefeated Merqui Sosa (18-0)
3-division champion Reggie Johnson (29-1)
3-division champion Mike McCallum (42-1)
undefeated Tim Littles (24-0)
3-division Champion and reigning IBF Super Middleweight / WBA Light Heavyweight Champion Iran Barkley (30-7)

Sure, he might have had some not-so-great performances in that span, but you also have to consider that he was fighting 6-10 times per year, even after he won his first title, and was floating between divisions to do it.

You're not going to be at your best everytime when your fighting every month or every other month.

I mean in 5 years as a pro he had more professional fights than Calzaghe does now, after 15 years as a pro, and already had arguably a better resume than Calzaghe does now.

[superchamp]

To put that in perspective:

In Calzaghe's first 5 years as a pro the only person of note he had beaten was
Chris Eubank (44-2), who took the fight on something like 2 weeks notice.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Calzaghe whooped Kessler in that fight, probably taking every round after R4 IMO. Kessler was a younger, prime, two belt champ, widely agreed to be the next best in the division.

Barkley was horribly shot. He couldn't even see! At one point he walked into the wrong corner and throughout the fight his trainers were spraying him with water after the round bell to guide him to them! He had to lean on Toney just to know where he was. Barkley also had no stamina whatsoever and for most of the fight was just a heavybag leaning on James. No wonder James beat him easy!

Anyway, as I said, both great fighters, but we ain't gonna change each other's minds are we?

Do you know why Barkely couldn't see? Becuase he was being countered at will and beaten. Punches is what caused his swollen eye so i can't see your point there. Toney was in shape, well prepared and motivated. Barkely would have actually had a shot at out working the version of Toney that lost to Drake Thatzi, Griffen and whom had the close disputed decision to Dave Tiberi.

Yes, Calzaghe would definitely out work that version of Toney, but thats just it. When Toney came in shape and prepared the way he did with Nunn and Barkely, then he would have excellent stamina and a decent high work rate. No offense but you sound like a critic that is trying to find different things to complain about. Any technical boxer that Calzaghe has been matched against, he has looked average. Take Robin Reid for example, he caught Calzaghe coming in with many right hands and was using rough tactics. Take Bernard Hopkins, despite being 43 years of age, not having much stamina and speed, many people believe that he beat Calzaghe, including Brian Kenny.

[abadger]

Do you know why Barkely couldn't see? Becuase he was being countered at will and beaten. Punches is what caused his swollen eye so i can't see your point there. Toney was in shape, well prepared and motivated. Barkely would have actually had a shot at out working the version of Toney that lost to Drake Thatzi, Griffen and whom had the close disputed decision to Dave Tiberi.

Yes, Calzaghe would definitely out work that version of Toney, but thats just it. When Toney came in shape and prepared the way he did with Nunn and Barkely, then he would have excellent stamina and a decent high work rate. No offense but you sound like a critic that is trying to find different things to complain about. Any technical boxer that Calzaghe has been matched against, he has looked average. Take Robin Reid for example, he caught Calzaghe coming in with many right hands and was using rough tactics. Take Bernard Hopkins, despite being 43 years of age, not having much stamina and speed, many people believe that he beat Calzaghe, including Brian Kenny.

No offense taken. It seems that way because I'm pointing out flaws that exist in my opinion, but not in yours. I get exactly the same thing when I'm having a debate over a fighter, usually Calzaghe. I often can't believe what I'm reading!

I take your point about technical boxers, which is why neither Jones (say what you want he isn't technical) nor Pavlik have me quaking in my boots but I think Dawson might beat Joe. I don't think Reid was anywhere near beating Calzaghe and he said himself in the immediate aftermath that he didn't think he beat him, but it was one of Calzaghe's tougher fights, yes.

On Toney v Calzaghe though, I feel we are destined to eternally disagree!

[pesticid]

James is bad but he'll have Joe do the Zaghe shuffle behind his back all night long.