Prime Vitali Klitschko vs Prime Mike Tyson

[Benny Leonard]

Even in Tysons prime, when someone would actually fight him back, he would not look as good and would go the distance. Just look at the quick tills, Razor Ruddock, and Bone Crusher Smith fight, that was PRIME Tyson at his best. He has problems with those tough fighters. To me, its just laughable when people say that Tyson would all of this stuff like slip inside the jab and knock Vitali out but, where was all of that when he fought Quick Tillis? People do not think about his insucurity and lack of heart. some observers actually made a case that Quick Tillis won that fight. I also remember reading that Tyson later wrote that he wanted to quit in the fight with Tillis because of the hard body shots that he was taken. It looks bad for Tyson for the simple fact that Tommy Morrison destroyed Tillis easily, and Lennox Lewis and Tommy Morrison both knocked out Razor Ruddock and Tyson fought life and death with him, and again this is PRIME Tyson that we are talking about. I see it like this, If Vitali makes it past the 6 round (which he would IMO) he would break Tyson down mentally because it was always discouraging for him when a fighter stood there and took all of his shots and kept coming back. Vitali keeps his distance, picks his spots to work from the outside, and stops and mentally and physically battered Tyson in the middle rounds.

You don't look as good because someone is fighting you back.
Vitali didn't look so great when past his prime Lennox Lewis was taking it to him.

Tillis: Tyson had never gone the distance before and was unsure he could make it, so he eased up off the gas. When he did make it, it boosted his confidence. It's better to look at Tyson once he won the title so your other choices are decent.

Smith held on to Tyson the entire fight and wouldn't punch back that often. It's kind of hard to look good against someone that is much bigger than you and holds, which Tucker did as well.

Razor is still after Spinks. Still good, since the ass kicking he got from Douglas woke him up a bit, although his life-style and training habits were said to be still not as great. He was being taught by Richie Gaighetti (or however you spell his name). Cayton made a point that Richie was anti-Cus D'amato, and this is the guy King got for Mike.

Ruddock also said Mike finished him off as a fighter.


Maybe Vitali throws out his shoulder again trying to hit the smaller, elusive Tyson, and then quits, again...possible.
How about cuts?
Vitali routinely keeps his hands down, head is stiff and has limited movement.

How the hell is Vitai going to keep his distance if he doesn't move like Ali and he is going to have to punch down. He has an 80' inch reach, nothing new to Tyson.


I don't agree with some of the posters who seemingly have Tyson destroying Vitali...it's a hard fight. Vitali fought nobody like a young-Tyson, and Mike, it's limited. It would have helped us out if Tyson stayed on track and had eventually met Lewis in his prime, but it didn't happen...which is another reason it's hard to see how good Tyson was or wasn't.

[Benny Leonard]

you may think klitschko is stiff, but, unless you can really analyze his style the way i can, you only see the outside. and no, i'm not saying he was the smoothest guy ever.

i still see so much of the tyson media imprinted on peoples minds.

and i wouldn't bring up cuts as a factor considering they have only been a problem once.

i also think people underestimate how truly hard it would be to fight vitali. there's really nobody that can truly emulate him.

i am done with this thread. some people will listen, others have their minds already made up. either way, no one can really say what would've happened. but we do know that vitali liked mike and mike said vitali was an outstanding fighter. case closed.

Stiff in the neck. His movement around the ring isn't bad, especially when he was a bit younger and weighed a little less.

For the Tyson media...really don't give a **** about the media and I don't think Tyson is the greatest ever or some mythical God that is unbeatable.

For cuts, it's Vitali's skin, like his brother.

I don't underestimate Vitali, he was a very good fighter, and will end up being underrated. I give him credit, however he does many things wrong when he punches. When he tries to throw combos, he is wide open, and he never fought someone good enough, in shape, to counter, which leaves questions. There are questions on Tyson as well.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Benny Leonard;3000485]You don't look as good because someone is fighting you back.
Vitali didn't look so great when past his prime Lennox Lewis was taking it to him.

Past his prime Lennox Lewis was still a great fighter and dominate champion when he fought Vitali. Prime Tyson wouldn't have beaten him either in my opinion because he had his ora down and was smarter about his boxing. Vitali was also ahead on the scorecards at the time of the stoppage.

Tillis: Tyson had never gone the distance before and was unsure he could make it, so he eased up off the gas. When he did make it, it boosted his confidence. It's better to look at Tyson once he won the title so your other choices are decent.

But this is PRIME Tyson who blew out all of those other bums before. Why didn't he blow out Tillis? Tillis was blown out by Tommy Morison. Elaborate on how it boosted his conidence when he still had those same very problems? After that fight, he again (like always) showed that he can not hang with a tough game fighters who will be there even after he landed his bombs. (Front runner)

Smith held on to Tyson the entire fight and wouldn't punch back that often. It's kind of hard to look good against someone that is much bigger than you and holds, which Tucker did as well.

good points but that Kinda sounds like an excuse, from what i remember, Smith was giving him a hard fight. (even though he was holding) When Smith finally decided to let his hands go in that last round, he had Tyson out on his feet and knocked him 5 feet backward.

Razor is still after Spinks. Still good, since the ass kicking he got from Douglas woke him up a bit, although his life-style and training habits were said to be still not as great. He was being taught by Richie Gaighetti (or however you spell his name). Cayton made a point that Richie was anti-Cus D'amato, and this is the guy King got for Mike.

Ruddock also said Mike finished him off as a fighter.

I dont see how thats possible when Ruddock put up a good fight with Tommy Morrison. (who became champion). The fights he had with Tyson is not the Gatti/Ward type of fights that would reck you as a fighter. It was the kind of fight that helps you learn from that experience and improve.

Maybe Vitali throws out his shoulder again trying to hit the smaller, elusive Tyson, and then quits, again...possible.
How about cuts?
Vitali routinely keeps his hands down, head is stiff and has limited movement.

How the hell is Vitai going to keep his distance if he doesn't move like Ali and he is going to have to punch down. He has an 80' inch reach, nothing new to Tyson.

If i am remembering correctly, the thread starter said PRIME Tyson vs Prime Vitali, meaning that this is a fair fight and they are at thier best. Vitali's body didn't break up when he was at his best. He was elusive, hard hitting, skillfull, and was also quick. and yes he often fought with his hands down but who made him pay for it? Exactly, he fought like that his whole career, its his style. Vitali is a masterful pure boxer and he knows what he is doing. Tyson is in range of Vitali punches so he will get hit alot. and Vitali keeps his distance, he backs up while putting the left hand in the opponents face and picks his spots from the outside. Similar to the way he did with Corrie Sanders, but sanders is taller than Tyson so it would actually be easier. and its just laughable to me the way you are ignoring that fact that Tyson breaks down in hard fights, not mentioning his lack or heart in no way, shape or form.

I don't agree with some of the posters who seemingly have Tyson destroying Vitali...it's a hard fight. Vitali fought nobody like a young-Tyson, and Mike, it's limited. It would have helped us out if Tyson stayed on track and had eventually met Lewis in his prime, but it didn't happen...which is another reason it's hard to see how good Tyson was or wasn't.

you say that Vitali has fought nobody like Tyson, but since when has Mike fought a 6'8 recking ball with boxing skill, good chin, great stamina, and power in both fist? off topic, The people on here who says that Tyson just blows Vitali out are obviously not knowledgable boxing fans. They are the kind os posters that just say that a fighter would win, without getting into any detail about the fight. I like you because you DO get into detail and explain.

[Benny Leonard]

QUOTE=slicksouthpaw16;3000533][I]Past his prime Lennox Lewis was still a great fighter and dominate champion when he fought Vitali. Prime Tyson wouldn't have beaten him either in my opinion because he had his ora down and was samarter about his boxing. Vitali was also ahead on the scorecards at the time of the stoppage.

lewis was 38 years old. Lewis wasn't even in his prime against Tyson, and people were saying it, including Larry Merch. Lewis was still a good fighter, true, but he was clearly not into it mentally nor physically. You can peak as a fighter mentally and then decline. Foreman actually mentioned this with Frazier, when Joe beat Ali, that was his peak. Lewis lasted as long as he did because he still had the goal of unifying and then taking out Tyson.

Vitali was up on the score-cards, true, but Lewis was starting to come on, which is also how Vitali got that nasty cut. It was Vitali that was holding on before the bell rang which would be the final round.

But this is PRIME Tyson who blew out all of those other bums before. Why didn't he blow out Tillis? Tillis was blown out by Tommy Morison. Elaborate on how it boosted his conidence when he still had those same very problems? After that fight, he again (like always) showed that he can not hang with a tough game fighters who will be there even after he landed his bombs. (Front runner)

He couldn't knockout Tillis early, and knew it. Tillis was holding, something the others weren't really able to do. When Tyson knew he wasn't going to finish him off early, he went into neutral to make sure he could finish. You wiill also see as Tyson continues to fight, he becomes a more patient fighter. Even Rooney told him to finish off Thomas, but Mike told him he wanted to continue to break Pinky down a bit more before finishing him off.

And, should we go down the list of fighters that were "blown out" by one fighter but not another?

good points but that Kinda sounds like an excuse, from what i remember, Smith was giving him a hard fight. (even though he was holding) When Smith finally decided to let his hands go in that last round, he had Tyson out on his feet and knocked him 5 feet backward.

Wow, nice exaggeration. He stunned Tyson towards the end, similar to the way Ruddock was able to do, but he wasn't out on his feet. You don't cover up and then fight back/forward if you are "out on your feet." I don't think Tyson was expecting it either since it was towards the end of the fight and Smith wasn't throwing much and looked like he was going to coast to a UD loss.

Smith was holding, ran away, simple as that. You cannot fight when someone is holding, and a 5'11, 220 pound Tyson would be ****** to try to wreste it out with a much bigger, stronger man through the course of a fight.

I dont see how thats possible when Ruddock put up a good fight with Tommy Morrison. (who became champion). The fights he had with Tyson is not the Gatti/Ward type of fights that would reck you as a fighter. It was the kind of fight that helps you learn from that experience and improve.

Are you serious? Are you in Ruddock's body?
Razor was being hit by Tyson, over and over, in two fights. He had bruised ribs and a broken Jaw in the second fight.

One fight, that is all it takes to hurt a fighter mentally and physically.

If i am remembering correctly, the thread starter said PRIME Tyson vs Prime Vitali, meaning that this is a fair fight and they are at thier best. Vitali's body didn't break up when he was at his best. He was elusive, hard hitting, skillfull, and was also quick. and yes he often fought with his hands down but who made him pay for it? Exactly, he fought like that his whole career, its his style. Vitali is a masterful pure boxer and he knows what he is doing. Tyson is in range of Vitali punches so he will get hit alot. and Vitali keeps his distance, he backs up while putting the left hand in the opponents face and picks his spots from the outside. Similar to the way he did with Corrie Sanders, but sanders is taller than Tyson so it would actually be easier. and its just laughable to me the way you are ignoring that fact that Tyson breaks down in hard fights, not mentioning his lack or heat in no way, shape or form.

Nobody made him pay for it because he fought nobodies. It works both ways. He still fought stiff up top, despite being able to move around the ring and being able to be somewhat elusive. It's like taking a pencil and moving it around, but the pencil still is stiff.

Vitali would still have to punch down, and bring himself lower than he usually fights, which makes it harder and makes him exposed. Emmanuel mentioned this was the problem with tall fighters and a reason why he was concerned with Lewis fighting smaller fighters. Bruno also mentioned this as a reason why it was so tough to fight Tyson when you are tall.

Vitali quit, how about that?

When did Tyson break down when he was under Rooney?

And even without, he didn't do bad against Ruddock.

you say that Vitali has fought nobody like Tyson, but since when has Mike fought a 6'8 recking ball with boxing skill, good chin, great stamina, and power in both fist? off topic, The people on here who says that Tyson just blows Vitali out are obviously not knowledgable boxing fans. They are the kind os posters that just say that a fighter would win, without getting into any detail about the fight. I like you because you DO get into detail and explain.

I thought I made mention that Tyson fought nobody exactly like Vitali, but he did fight someone at least closer.

Vitali's power and stamina could be questioned a bit. I question Tyson's as well. I don't think Vitali hits as hard as Wlad.

When a big man is able to control a fight, he is able to control his stamina, but when they are pressured faster than they are used to, the tank can empty out fast. This is also one of the concerns I have every time I am watching Wlad. For his power, he is a big puncher, but not devastating as you make him out to be...neither is Tyson. Vitali was landing shot after shot on Lewis and couldn't take him out...why?

[DiegoFuego]

didn't Chris Byrd stop Vitali?

[Technical_Skill]

Tyson by death.

[big paulie]

Holmes? Clearly past his peak. There is no significance for the simple fact that we all know that prime Holmes would have beaten Tyson. Even if Tillis was younger when he fought Tyson, Tillis was never a great contender or even a champion. That same Larry Holmes also lost to Oliver Mccall. Is MCcall a great fighter now?

yeah holmes was just past his best in 88 like i said he gave holyfield a tough night 4 years later, but tyson was just 21 and its the way in which he beat holmes, holmes with his vastly greater experience and just 3 years departed from his reign as champion was battered senseless, so no, we dont all know that a prime holmes would have beaten tyson

[slicksouthpaw16]

Benny Leonard;3000602]lewis was 38 years old. Lewis wasn't even in his prime against Tyson, and people were saying it, including Larry Merch. Lewis was still a good fighter, true, but he was clearly not into it mentally nor physically. You can peak as a fighter mentally and then decline. Foreman actually mentioned this with Frazier, when Joe beat Ali, that was his peak. Lewis lasted as long as he did because he still had the goal of unifying and then taking out Tyson.

Vitali was up on the score-cards, true, but Lewis was starting to come on, which is also how Vitali got that nasty cut. It was Vitali that was holding on before the bell rang which would be the final round.

Its laughable how you talk about Lewis like he was shot when he fought Vitali, taking away from how well Vitali looked against a hall of famer. Lennox Lewis was still a dominate champion and knocking fighters out left and right. If he was so ''past his prime'', then why was he still champion? Lennox was never in wars, i would say that he was slightly past his prime, and thats kinda pushing it. He started to come on because Vitali had that cut, which is also why Vitali had to hold on. Who says that Tyson would hit Vitali as often as Lewis did? Lewis is almost as tall as Vitali and a great pure boxer, that is why he was able to hit Vitali that often. Have you seen anyone else hit Vitali that often? Tyson is alot shorter and in range of Vitali's punches, plus hes not a great pure boxer. He would be getting hit more than he is hitting.

He couldn't knockout Tillis early, and knew it. Tillis was holding, something the others weren't really able to do. When Tyson knew he wasn't going to finish him off early, he went into neutral to make sure he could finish. You wiill also see as Tyson continues to fight, he becomes a more patient fighter. Even Rooney told him to finish off Thomas, but Mike told him he wanted to continue to break Pinky down a bit more before finishing him off.

And, should we go down the list of fighters that were "blown out" by one fighter but not another?

The point is that Tillis was never a good top fighter and Tyson fought life and death with. and looking at that fight, then looking at how Morrison torched Tillis really makes Tyson look bad. you are also ignoring the fact that Tyson later wrote that he wanted to quit in that fight from all of the body shots that he was taking, some observers made a case that the decision should have went to Tillis. again, this is PRIME Tyson that we are talking about. what happened? Its laughable how people compare Tyson to the all time greats, would Ali, Foreman, Johnson, or any of the other greats have a close fight with quick Tillis? please.

Wow, nice exaggeration. He stunned Tyson towards the end, similar to the way Ruddock was able to do, but he wasn't out on his feet. You don't cover up and then fight back/forward if you are "out on your feet." I don't think Tyson was expecting it either since it was towards the end of the fight and Smith wasn't throwing much and looked like he was going to coast to a UD loss.

Smith was holding, ran away, simple as that. You cannot fight when someone is holding, and a 5'11, 220 pound Tyson would be ****** to try to wreste it out with a much bigger, stronger man through the course of a fight.

He knocked Tyson 5 feet back wards and rocked him. Imagine what he would have done if he would have opened up earlier in the fight? and it sounds like an excuse when you said ''Tyson was not expecting it''. please, many fighters get knocked out and do not expect the punch that did it. your point? and if someone is holding you, just push them off and go back to work, thats what a fighter does.

Are you serious? Are you in Ruddock's body?
Razor was being hit by Tyson, over and over, in two fights. He had bruised ribs and a broken Jaw in the second fight.

One fight, that is all it takes to hurt a fighter mentally and physically.

LOL! Its laughable how you try making Ruddock seem shot to take away from him being torched by Lennox and Morrison. He was shot in the Morrison fight, he actaully put up a pretty good fight before he was stopped. where was he shot? He was not shot when he fought Lewis either. It was not what he was not doing to Lennox, it was Lennox was doing to him.

Nobody made him pay for it because he fought nobodies. It works both ways. He still fought stiff up top, despite being able to move around the ring and being able to be somewhat elusive. It's like taking a pencil and moving it around, but the pencil still is stiff.

Vitali would still have to punch down, and bring himself lower than he usually fights, which makes it harder and makes him exposed. Emmanuel mentioned this was the problem with tall fighters and a reason why he was concerned with Lewis fighting smaller fighters. Bruno also mentioned this as a reason why it was so tough to fight Tyson when you are tall.

Bruno was scared to death of Tyson. and Punch down? that means that Tyson is taylor made for him. He has a short fight that is in range of his punches and does not have the best defense in the world. like i said before, Tyson would be getting hit a lot more than he is hitiing. and since when have you seen someone hit Vitali's body at will? it has never happened. He has an underrated defense and is a great pure boxer. and you getting Vitali mixed up with Wladimir. Wladimir is pencil stiff. Vitali is loose and fluent with his boxing, i dont know where you get the impression that he is stiff.

Vitali quit, how about that?

When did Tyson break down when he was under Rooney?

And even without, he didn't do bad against Ruddock
k.

Its laughable how you say that Vitali quits when the thread starter says PRIME, meaning that its when they fight at thier 100% best. He quit when he his shoulder gave out and thats an injury, so that is not needed in this debate. he was well ahead on the score cards against a 2 time world Heavyweight champion in Chris Byrd before it happened. We can use Tyson not having heart in this debate because he never had heart to begin with. Vitail didn't always have injuries so we can thorw that quiting stuff out. Besides, after the Byrd fight, Vitali promised his fans that he would never quit again. did he quit against Lennox? no, he didn't. And Tyson DID look terrible against Ruddock when you look at what Morrison and Lennox did to him. When you take away all of the press and hype, Tyson is just an average fighter. Seems to me like you are believing the hype along with everyone else.

I thought I made mention that Tyson fought nobody exactly like Vitali, but he did fight someone at least closer.

LOL! am i missing something? wow, i didn't know that Tyson fought a prime 6'8 2 time world champion with a good chin, good stamina, great power and chin?

Vitali's power and stamina could be questioned a bit. I question Tyson's as well. I don't think Vitali hits as hard as Wlad.

When a big man is able to control a fight, he is able to control his stamina, but when they are pressured faster than they are used to, the tank can empty out fast. This is also one of the concerns I have every time I am watching Wlad. For his power, he is a big puncher, but not devastating as you make him out to be...neither is Tyson. Vitali was landing shot after shot on Lewis and couldn't take him out...why?

what does Vitali not hitting has as Wlad has to do with anything? Vitali has a knockout ratio of over 90%. His record is 35-2-33 knockouts with both knockouts being flukes and not REAL losses. Lennox Lewis was labled to having a weak chin but his chin isn't weak at all. When he was ready and prepared to take a good shot, he has showed a good chin. just look at the Mercer, Tua, Bruno, and Vitali fights. They all hit him and didn't take him out. you can tell how hard Vitali hits because you heard a loud ''snap'' when he was hitting Lewis.

[Benny Leonard]

yeah holmes was just past his best in 88 like i said he gave holyfield a tough night 4 years later, but tyson was just 21 and its the way in which he beat holmes, holmes with his vastly greater experience and just 3 years departed from his reign as champion was battered senseless, so no, we dont all know that a prime holmes would have beaten tyson

Atlas seemed to indicate it wouldn't have mattered what stage Holmes was in, Tyson would still beat him because of a flaw in Holmes. Remember, it is about being able to expose the flaw in the fighter and according to Atlas, Mike was able to do something at that time that Holmes always had problems with...Holmes would drop his left after he jabbed and didn't move his head well, and Mike, at that point, was great at timing punches and could land the right hand, something Holmes was vulnerable to, which even slow Shavers was able to land, except, unlike Tyson, he wasn't fast enough, aggressive enough, talented enough to finish.
I think it would be a good fight and never sold on these "fantasy" fights when it’s this close.

[big paulie]

Its laughable how you talk about Lewis like he was shot when he fought Vitali, taking away from how well Vitali looked against a hall of famer. Lennox Lewis was still a dominate champion is knocking fighters out left and right. If he was so ''past his prime'', then why was he still champion? Lennox was never in wars, i would say that he was slightly past his prime, and thats kinda pushing it. He started to come on because Vitali had that cut, which is also why Vitali had to hold on. Who says that Tyson would hit Vitali as often as Lewis did? Lewis is almost as tall as Vitali and a great pure boxer, that is why he was able to hit Vitali that often. Have you seen anyone else hit Vitali that often? Tyson is alot shorter and in range of Vitali's punches, plus hes not a great pure boxer. He would be getting hit more than he is hitting.



The point is that Tillis was never a good top fighter and Tyson fought life and death with. and looking at that fight, then looking at how Morrison torched Tillis really makes Tyson look bad. you are also ignoring the fact that Tyson later wrote that he wanted to quit in that fight from all of the body shots that he was taking, some observers made a case that the decision should have went to Tillis. again, this is PRIME Tyson that we are talking about. what happened? Its laughable how people compare Tyson to the all time greats, would Ali, Foreman, Johnson, or any of the other greats have a close fight with quick Tillis? please.


He knocked Tyson 5 feet back wards and rocked him. Imagine what he would have done if he would have opened up earlier in the fight? and it sounds like an excuse when you said ''Tyson was not expecting it''. please, many fighters get knocked out and do not expect the punch that did it. your point? and if someone is holding you, just push them off and go back to work, thats what a fighter does.



LOL! Its laughable how you try making Ruddock seem shot to take away from him being torched by Lennox and Morrison. He was shot in the Morrison fight, he actaully put up a pretty good fight before he was stopped. where was he shot? He was not shot when he fought Lewis either. It was not what he was not doing to Lennox, it was Lennox was doing to him.

Punch down? that means that Tyson is taylor made for him. He has a short fight that is in range of his punches and does not have the best defense in the world. like i said before, Tyson would be getting hit a lot more than he is hitiing. and since when have you seen someone hit Vitali's body at will? it has never happened. He has an underrated defense and is a great pure boxer. and you getting Vitali mixed up with Wladimir. Wladimir is pencil stiff. Vitali is loose and fluent with his boxing, i dont know where you get the impression that he is stiff.




Its laughable how you say that Vitali quits when the thread starter says PRIME, meaning that its when they fight at thier 100% best. He quit when he his shoulder have out and thats an injury, so that is not needed in this debate. he was well ahead on the score cards against a 2 time world Heavyweight champion in Chris Byrd before it happened. We can use Tyson not having heart in this debate because he never had heart to begin with. Vitail didn't always have injuries so we can thorw that quiting stuff out. Besides, after the Byrd fight, Vitali promised his fans that he would never quit again. did he quit against Lennox? no, he didn't. And Tyson DID look terrible against Ruddock when you look at what Morrison and Lennox did to him. When you take away all of the press and hype, Tyson is just an average fighter. Seems to me like you are believing the hype along with everyone else.

LOL! am i missing something? wow, i didn't know that Tyson fought a prime 6'8 2 time world champion with a good chin, good stamina, great power and chin?


what does Vitali not hitting has as Wlad has to do with anything? Vitali has a knockout ratio of over 90%. His record is 35-2-33 knockouts with both knockouts being flukes and not REAL losses. Lennox Lewis was labled to having a weak chin but his chin isn't weak at all. When he was ready and prepared to take a good shot, he has showed a good chin. just look at the Mercer, Tua, Bruno, and Vitali fights. They all hit him and didn't take him out. you can tell how hard Vitali hits because you heard a loud ''snap'' when he was hitting Lewis.

you say tyson would be in range of vitali's shots and would be getting hit more than hitting because he is shorter, come on mike was shorter than just about everyone he fought and remember we're talking about a prime tyson, one of the hardest to hit heavyweights ever