How could Roy Jones Junior be the best of this era?

[VIVA MEXICO!!!]

Just like I have Chavez and Judah on Floyd's. Take Paz off, take one of them off.

there are alot of bums taht mayweather fought.

[shawn_]

How in the world can you think any of that? Especially about Jones, who always had the style to destroy Toney.

I don't think you have seen very much of James Toney at his peak. If you had, I believe you of all people would be preaching his praises. The ultimate slickster.

One the best defenses of all time. One of the best offensive arsenals of all time. One of, if not the best chin of all time. Some of the fastest hands of all time. Good power, gobs of heart, and loads of skill. Unfortunately, he lacked something very important. Dedication.

A James Toney with dedication perhaps could have been the best fighter of all time.

[shawn_]

I disagree. I said this already in another thread, but it's worth repeating here. People who think it's more impressive to successfully move (become champion) from middleweight to heavyweight than from junior lightweight to junior middle are not considering that there is a pretty obvious talent curve in boxing that tapers of somewhere after welterweight. There is a much higher concentration of talent from 130-154, no question. If I put on 20lbs and trained for a year, I could probably win a cruiserweight belt.

On a separate note, how the hell does Jones have a better resume than Floyd?

Glad you think so, why don't you give it a try?

[Jim Jeffries]

The most skilled? Moreso than Ray Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Floyd Mayweather, etc?

And noone on earth will argue that he fought better opposition than Ray Leonard, nor did he face better opp than Whitaker, and the key thing with Toney is, he didn't beat all the best opp, and lost to a lot of lower level fighters as well, such as losing to Drake Thadzi, Montell Griffin twice, and getting a gift against a schmoe like Dave Tiberi. That doesn't strike me as "most skilled" when you lose to guys like that.

The same Montell Griffin that Roy Jones Jr knocked out in the first round?

[shawn_]

[Sweet Pete]

The same Montell Griffin that Roy Jones Jr knocked out in the first round?

Yep, and we're comparing Toney to the same Roy Jones that shut him out over 12.

[shawn_]

I also forgot to mention that I consider James Toney the best in-fighter of all time.

[shawn_]

Yep, and we're comparing Toney to the same Roy Jones that shut him out over 12.

Thats the same James Toney that had to lose 45lb to make weight on fight week... Once again, if James Toney was DEDICATED. He could have been the greatest fighter ever.

[Sweet Pete]

I don't think you have seen very much of James Toney at his peak. If you had, I believe you of all people would be preaching his praises. The ultimate slickster.

One the best defenses of all time. One of the best offensive arsenals of all time. One of, if not the best chin of all time. Some of the fastest hands of all time. Good power, gobs of heart, and loads of skill. Unfortunately, he lacked something very important. Dedication.

A James Toney with dedication perhaps could have been the best fighter of all time.

He was a very skilled fighter, seen a lot of prime Toney. Trust me, I am not one to speak on fighters I've not seen a lot of or haven't studied on(more regarding old timers). I consider myself a student of the game and an historian/boxing analyst.

Toney in his prime was a prime example to me of someone who looked great against the right opponent, someone like a Barkley, but who also looked pretty bad against certain styles.

Here's the thing with Toney. Mayweather is more skilled than him. I mean this by, Mayweather has a very similar inside game and defense to Toney, but what Toney lacks(movement and a top notch outside game) Mayweather provides. Someone like Floyd is more well-rounded than Toney. Movers/boxers could give Toney problems. Fellow slicksters were his downfall, which is why I doubt even on his A game he could've given Roy much more of a fight.

Roy was the ultimate foe for counter-punchers. Someone who was so quick he could hit you and pop out before you had a chance to hit him. He would set up moves where he could counter the counter puncher, and would force Toney to play aggressor, setting him up to be countered instead. Someone like a Roy Jones, and even(though you may not like this) possibly a Joe Calzaghe could've beaten him a lot(Calzaghe was there to get hit more and brawl more, so Toney has a shot to beat him). This is why Toney had so much trouble with a fellow slickster like Griffin, and a mover like Nunn.

He looked beautiful when on his game against the right opponent, but if you watched some of his fights, he wasn't versatile enough, not well versed against as many styles as so many other greats.

[Orange Sneakers]

Ray admits this? I will have to call source or BS on that one. And he would obviously have lost to Nunn at that point when past his prime. You're asking a past his prime old version of Leonard to fight a bigger fighter in his prime? Nah, I'm sure he would pass. And you're comparing a prime McCallum of 154 to the old man at LHW that Toney fought? The fact that McCallum did so good at that age when someone like Jones thrashed is saying something about Toney in the first place. He beat Nunn, good win. Steward said McCallum got the best of him in sparring, and again, you comparing a prime McCallum at 154 to the old, shot fighter 30 pounds above his best that Toney fought is absolutely laughable. That's like saying Ali was one of the best ever, and Berbick beating him makes him one of the best ever.

Unfortunately Roy Jones was still around.

The fact that you mention Sosa, DeWirr, Thornton, Littles, and Williams tells me you're reaching very far for credible opponents, as none of them are anyone worthy of any mention really.

He didn't fight Benn, Eubank, Hopkins, McCallum, etc etc. There are many he didn't fight, and the guys you named aren't that impressive, how do you honestly think the names I just took out of your post are impressive wins? They're second tier opponents.

Ali, Duran, Leonard, Robinson, Charles, Moore, Louis, Whitaker, Ortiz, ****in De La Hoya, Chavez, Napoles, Monzon, Griffith, Lewis, Holyfield, Hagler, Arguello, etc all have better resumes.

McCallum was coming off wins over Herol Graham and Michael Watson, two of the best defensive fighters you'll see, and showed he certainly wasn't shot in the Toney fights themselves - they were two of his best-ever performances

Sosa was an animal, Eubank ducked Littles who was undeafeted and had amateur wins over Jones and McClellan, and Prince Charles was very, very, very good

He didn't fight Eubank or Benn but he certainly wanted to, while Hopkins meant nothing

His win over Nunn was a masterclass in staying calm and applying a plan

He also was one of the few proper defensive, non-running boxers and has fought a huge ammount of fights, including non-title bouts between fights

In 1991 he did more than most HOF fighters in the course of a single year. Wins over Sosa, Nunn and a draw against McCallum

Awesome fighter