Who is the Best Pound 4 Pound fighter in their primes ever?

[SquareCircle]

He might not have been a top 10 that's up to you and you have that right but if you mean that he wasn't a great fighter then you just need to stop watching boxing because you just don't understand it.

I couldn't care less and am not defensive just wasn't sure who you were speaking on.

I understand your point now with the Bruce Lee topics and agree that some pople get a little caught up in the hype but that also works for boxing as well .

There are martial artist who would beat some boxers as well as boxers that would beat martial artist it's a boring played out du8mb ass topic.


And Langford was beating the best of his time when far past his prime at a weight far above his own why would I need anything else ?

Tyson a top 20 All time HW on your list? He was great, but I can think of 20 greater hw's.

Film only exists of Langford fighting Fireman Jim Flynn and Bill Lang...and those aren't even full fights. It's like saying Greb is the best middleweight ever, when we have essentially zero footage of him. Langford got a draw with Walcott before losing to Johnson, who was KO'd by Willard, a guy Dempsey humiliated in the first round.

[THE REAL NINJA]

Tyson a top 20 All time HW on your list? He was great, but I can think of 20 greater hw's.

Film only exists of Langford fighting Fireman Jim Flynn and Bill Lang...and those aren't even full fights. It's like saying Greb is the best middleweight ever, when we have essentially zero footage of him. He got a draw with Walcott before losing to Johnson, who was KO'd by Willard, a guy Dempsey humiliated in the first round.

I don't know I don't make list because it's pointless.

There is no tape of Robinson in his prime either

I know what you mean but understand that this is a hypothetical title there for hypothetically from what we know about Langford I can hypothetically say he was a good p4p fighter .

You think a draw with Johnson isn't great ?

That was like James Toney today drawing with prime Lennox Lewis.

[Poet682006]

I by and large am reluctant to place Heavyweights on p4p lists. In my eyes the best p4p fighter was Ray Robinson. Watching him I'm convinced he was the perfect fighting machine.

Poet

[RB23]

Mayweather Jr.
Jones Jr.
Hopkins
Ali
Leonard

[SquareCircle]

I don't know I don't make list because it's pointless.

There is no tape of Robinson in his prime either

I know what you mean but understand that this is a hypothetical title there for hypothetically from what we know about Langford I can hypothetically say he was a good p4p fighter .

You think a draw with Johnson isn't great ?

That was like James Toney today drawing with prime Lennox Lewis.

well...

He drew with Walcott, not Johnson.

He was dropped in the sixth vs Johnson and lost a decision.

He also lost vs a guy who was 73-37 via TKO named Tut Jackson...Langford was also stopped by a guy named Bearcat Wright, who had a record of 55-17...

[THE REAL NINJA]

well...

He drew with Walcott, not Johnson.

He was dropped in the sixth vs Johnson and lost a decision.

He also lost vs a guy who was 73-37 via TKO named Tut Jackson...Langford was also stopped by a guy named Bearcat Wright, who had a record of 55-17...

Your right, A draw with Walcott is still great .

So he drew with one of the best of his time at his own weight and then went 15 with one of the best heavyweights of all time in most ppl's eyes.


A lot of these were also NEWS PAPER old recs don't always mean very much .

[Yogi]

well...

He drew with Walcott, not Johnson.

He was dropped in the sixth vs Johnson and lost a decision.

He also lost vs a guy who was 73-37 via TKO named Tut Jackson...Langford was also stopped by a guy named Bearcat Wright, who had a record of 55-17...

The losses to Jackson and Wright also came about when he was literally blind in one eye, virtually blind in the other, fat, and around the age of 40, so unless you have a habit of holding late losses against a fighter.

The draw against Walcott was also considered a bad decision from the contemporary sources that I've read on the fight, whether it be the NY Times, Police Gazette, New York Sun, Boston Globe, etc., who all stated that Langford deserved the nod in that fight.

You'd also have to check out the contemporary writings of some of Langford's other fights where he was officially given a draw or a loss. For example, boxrec may tell you that Fireman Flynn deserved a newspaper draw aqccording to a source from nearly a year after the fight, but the day-afters from the fight's very location (I'll keep this as a brief description, but..."A little black middleweight, Sam Langford, beat the local heavyweight, Ji9m Flynn, in a ten rounds last night at McCarey's Naud Junction fight house." - LA Times, Feb 10th, 1910)

You can also check out contemporary sources from his first two fights with Sam McVey, the draw and the the decision loss, and you'll see that the draw McVey got the first time around caused quite the scandal in France because they all viewed Langford as the clear winner, and the rematch wasn't without it's share of controversy either, as the the crowd reportedly again boo'd the decision given to McVey with the day-afters saying that Langford deserved no worse than a draw.

Etc., etc., etc.

There's plenty of fights and results of Langford's that don't nearly tell the whole story by simply looking at the result, like him being forced to retire from one of the Young Peter Jackson fights from earlier in his career because of a freak arm injury that left him inactive for quite a spell.

And as far as Johnson knocking down Langford, yes he did, but if I may;

"I found him (Langford) one of the toughest adversaries that I ever met in the ring. I weighed 190 pounds and Langford only 138. In the second round the little negro hit me on the jaw with a terrible right hand and I fell as if upended by a cannon ball. In all my pugilistic career, not before and not afterwards, have I recieved a blow that struck me with such force. It was all I could do just to get back on my feet just as the referee was about to count to "Ten!"."- Jack Johnson in his 1910 biography, Mes Combat

Johnson seems to have sugared it up some from other descriptions of Langford reportedly knocking him down, but apparently Langford hit plenty hard and was dangerous enough to where Johnson went out of his way to avoid any rematch with Langford once Langford became a little more physically mature.

[THE REAL NINJA]

What I don't get is

okay so there is no tape to prove how great people say he was but UMmm there is also no tape to prove that he wasn't.

I have seen the clips of him I have read every book I have found on him I've heard people talk about him I've seen his record ...

I don't think he was the #1 best of all time but he was among them.

[realheavyhands]

hagler 160
holmes 200
tyson 220
whitiker

[SquareCircle]

It sounds to be accurate considering his ethnicity and how the times were back then regarding the controversial losses. That's a good quote from Johnson.

as far as who I consider the best p4p fighter ever...I'm going to go with Willie Pep, what he did against sadder was unlike anything I've ever seen in a smaller man's defensive package. No doubt in my mind his defense is better than Mayweather Jr's...