Whos better Leonard or Duran

[Brandish]

No, nuthugging is saying that Leonard is clearly greater than Duran without argument.

if you're objective then it is obvious who was the better fighter and had the more distinguished career. if you're a nuthugger then you will rank duran above leonard eventhough leonard beat all the fighters that beat duran and beat duran x 2.

[Brandish]

The issue has been settled. Most boxing historians, writers, publications, broadcasters, fans, and reasonable observers everywhere rate Duran higher among the p4p all-time greatest fighters. All the childish bickering and insult-trading on this thread ain't gonna change that. If the thread-starter had posted a poll, Duran would be way ahead on that too. So let's all get a life and go back to what we were doing, 'cause the jury is in, folks: Duran's better that Leonard! Hands (of stone) down...

that's why he quit in the rematch like a little ***** better then leonard how did duran do against hearns and hagler

[Fox McCloud]

that's why he quit in the rematch like a little ***** better then leonard how did duran do against hearns and hagler

It is really strange to say this... but it is almost like Duran had an excellent career, with a ton of wins, a lot of really good wins, but not very many wins against elite fighters. I mean, the 4 big names from that era were Duran, Hearns, Hagler and Leonard.

Leonard, on the other hand, had a short career, but ended up with a stellar record over elite fighters.

Duran was 1-4 (1 win over Leonard, 2 losses to Leonard, 1 loss to Hearns and 1 loss to Hagler)
Hearns was 1-2-1 (1 win over Duran, a loss to Leonard, a loss to Hagler and draw with Leonard)
Hagler was 2-1 (1 win over Duran, 1 win over Hearns and a loss to Leonard)
Leonard was 4-1-1 (2 wins over Duran, 1 win over Hagler, 1 win over Hearns and a draw with Hearns)

I haven't dove head first into both of their careers at length... but it is true that big name fights do carve legacies quite a bit. Anyways, no one take this me taking sides, this is actually just observation. I don't know who is better, because I haven't studied this **** at length.

[gixxer]

Roberto Duran, “Hands of Stone”....“Born to be Champion.”
By: Monte D. Cox



Roberto Duran, who grew up in the tough streets of Panama, was a natural born fighter. The son of a Mexican father and a Panamanian mother, the Latin legend learned to fight at a young age. Duran turned pro at 16 and went on to become perhaps the best professional fighter since the heyday of Ray Robinson. After beating Esteban DeJesus in their rubber match for the unified lightweight title he declared to the press, “I was born to be champion of the world.” Indeed he was nearly unbeatable for 13 years reaching a peak record of 72-1 with 56 knockouts, during which time he reigned undefeated as world lightweight champion for 6 years and also won the world welterweight title. Duran was a 4 divisional champion, lightweight (1972-79), welterweight (1980), junior middleweight (1983) and middleweight (1989-90). At his best as lightweight king he successfully defended the title 12 times, 11 by knockout. In his career he stopped 21 opponents in the first round, 31 within the first 3 rounds. He fought until the age of 50 with a final career record of 103-16 (70 KOs).

Roberto didn’t receive his education in a public school; he was kicked out in the third grade. Duran’s schooling came from the school of hard knocks. It was on the streets and in the gyms of Panama that Duran’s natural ability was honed into that of a consummate professional fighter. Early in his career Roberto was a ferocious, brawling slugger who over-whelmed his opposition with his strength, determination, body punching and a strong right hand punch. Duran was a very purposeful, aggressive fighter who possessed a competitive fire that few fighters in history could hope to match. He had murder in his eyes, and as a lightweight had the punching power to match his inner rage. Veteran trainers Ray Arcel, who had worked with the likes of Benny Leonard, Tony Zale, and Ezzard Charles along with Freddie Brown, a former cut-man of Rocky Marciano and student of Charley Goldman, were brought in to help develop Roberto into a complete fighter. Duran succeeded in the graduate school of pugilism that Arcel and Brown instructed. By the time he was to face Ken Buchanan for the lightweight title Duran was already growing past the stage of being just a slugging hitter, but was gradually molding into a fine puncher-boxer.

Duran won the lightweight championship at the age of 21 by beating clever Ken Buchanan in 13 rounds at New York’s Madison Square Garden. It was a good fight and although Buchanan’s boxing ability gave Duran some difficulty Roberto was clearly winning at the time of the stoppage. The fight ended when Duran landed a hard body shot that was borderline low that sank Buchanan to his knees. The fights referee, Johnny LoBianco, realizing that Duran was ahead on points and thinking Buchanan might be trying to exaggerate the effects of the blow, declared Duran the winner by knockout. The New York Daily News reported that “Duran was much the better fighter and was well on his way to taking the title away when the incident happened.”

Duran’s reign of terror over the lightweight division had begun. Duran proved to be a fighting champion defending the title 12 times and engaging in 20 non-title bouts during his tenor as 135-pound champion. His lone loss was in a non-title fight against boxer-puncher and left hook artist Esteban DeJesus. Duran was dropped in the first round and lost a 10 round decision on points. In a rematch Duran evened things up winning by knockout in the 11th round of a title defense. Duran dominated their title unifying rubber match winning with a convincing 12th round knockout.

By the time of the third DeJesus fight Duran had developed into something really special, a throwback to the days of the great fighters of the past. He was at the peak of his powers in becoming one of the greatest fighters of all time in combining toughness and polished boxing skill. The one time street fighter was an artist. The Jan. 30, 1978 Sports Illustrated stated, “Moving fluidly and jabbing, slipping punches and countering rather than swarming over DeJesus, he stalked him, relentlessly wearing him down and coolly destroying him with savage punches to the body. For 11 rounds Duran bested the classic boxer at his own game, robbing him of his speed and his will to fight, and only then did he permit himself the luxury of putting DeJesus away.” Duran proved that he had learned pace and how to apply strategy in the ring. The old masters would have approved.

Angelo Dundee said of Duran (SI Jan 30, ’78) “One gets the impression of Duran is that he’s a tough, rough brawler who just wades in and ducks nothing. But all you have to do is look at his face to see that is nonsense. He’s not marked up. He does a lot of cute things in there.”

Duran has been very under-rated defensively by some analysts. He had good head movement, slipped punches, and got angles on his opponent’s inside. When he slipped those punches he would always be in punching position to land power shots with full balance and leverage. When he was hit he would usually roll with the punch to reduce its effectiveness. He would usually parry an opponent’s jab when he was going to rush inside. Duran was also a master at feinting. He would feint with the lead right and if his opponent’s would lean back, which is a popular tactic amongst modern boxers, they would expose their body and Duran would cleverly switch his attack with a left hook counter to the liver.

Duran beat former welterweight champion Carlos Palomino, who was a solid 147-pound fighter, on a 10 round decision on June 22, 1979. Palomino commented (SI Jun. 16, 1980), “He’s good inside, very good, strong physically. The one thing that surprised me the most was his quickness. And his defensive ability. He moves his head a lot, feints a lot. He’s not an easy man to hit.”

Duran’s trainer Ray Arcel noted (Anderson, 140), “Duran knew how to fight. He knew what to do. If he looked at the corner the only thing I ever had to do was pretend to jab, once he was using his jab I knew he’d have no trouble. Even more important he knew how to think. When you talk about great fighters, always remember there was a guy named Roberto Duran. He was never given the

[gixxer]

opportunity to really display his wares because at his peak, he was overshadowed by Muhammad Ali.”

Duran’s biggest victory was his brilliant title winning effort against then unbeaten Sugar Ray Leonard for the world welterweight championship. In a bout that featured ferocious infighting by both men Duran outworked, out-hustled and yes, out-boxed Ray Leonard. The June 30, 1980 Sports Illustrated reported, “It was, from almost the opening salvo, a fight that belonged to Roberto Duran. The Panamanian seized the evening and gave it what shape and momentum it had. He took control, attacking and driving Leonard to the ropes, bulling him back, hitting him with lefts and rights to the body as he maneuvered the champion against the ropes from corner to corner.” Duran was relentless as he pressured, mauled, and pounded his way to a unanimous decision.

The one aberration on Duran’s record is the infamous “No Mas” fight in his rematch against Ray Leonard. It was highly controversial; many believing Duran threw the fight for an 8 million dollar payday. He resigned unhurt in the eighth round. Leonard was fast on his feet and mocking Duran when Roberto mysteriously quit claiming stomach cramps. Ray Arcel said (Anderson, 142), “That’s nonsense. I just think Duran couldn’t accept Leonard’s clowning, that Leonard got his goat and he couldn’t handle it. Between rounds I kept telling Duran, “If you crowd him, you can keep him from going through all these motions.” That’s what Duran had done in Montreal, and I kept reminding him, “Remember Montreal, shove him, push him.” If anybody would have told Duran another fighter would make him quit, he’d have got a gun and killed him. I never worked with Duran again. When he finally fought Leonard a third time I thought he’d be more aggressive but he tried to outbox him.”

Duran was disgraced after the 2nd Leonard fight and he struggled to regain his form losing a decision to the speedy and clever triple crown champion Wilfred Benitez and then was upset by Kirkland Liang. It looked like his career might be finished. Then Duran then did what the great ones do; he started a successful comeback. Duran knocked out former WBA welterweight champion and left hook artist Pipino Cuevas in 4 rounds. He then got a chance at the WBA Jr. Middleweight championship against undefeated Davey Moore. This fight was a classic example of why the old-timers were better than modern era fighters. Moore was bigger, faster, and more athletically talented than Duran. Moore had a long and successful amateur career, was unbeaten as a pro and came in as a 3-1 favorite over the Panamanian challenger. But it all amounted to nothing over the vastly more experienced Duran. Roberto administered such a one sided beating to the champion as to nearly finish Moore’s career. The fight was mercifully stopped in the eighth round and Duran, redeemed, was a champion again.

Duran last great performance was his bout against WBC Middleweight champion Iran Barkley, a fight that Duran described as “the greatest of my life.” It was a truly outstanding performance by a 37-year- old veteran master against a much bigger, stronger and more powerful champion. Barkley was fresh off his devastating title winning performance against Thomas Hearns; the only man to ever knockout the real Duran back in 1984. Duran used boxing skill, slick defense, and clever inside fighting to offset Barkley’s greater size and power. Gil Clancy commenting at ringside said, “Duran just slipped 6 punches in a row” to which Al Bernstein, replied, “Duran has always been the master of defense that is one of his trademarks.” In the 7th round Barkley nailed Duran with his best double hook to the chin. Duran was hurt but forced a clinch. In the eighth Barkley nailed Duran hard again with a powerful left hook that caused Roberto to spin from the force of the blow, but he fought back. “It was his heart,” Barkley said later, “It just wouldn’t go.” Duran’s punches were doing damage as well; by the 9th round Barkley’s left eye was swelling from Duran’s right hand counters. Duran said, “Barkley was paying for every punch he threw.” The last rounds were all Duran as he boxed beautifully inside. In the 11th Duran landed one of the best combinations of his career, a smashing right counter, followed by a hammering left hook, another right, then he feinted a left hook and hammered a pile driver right that sent Barkley crashing to the canvas. Barkley survived and they fought evenly in the last round. It was a tough, great fight but Duran won a deserved split-decision and the 160-pound title.

Even at an old age, well into his 40’s, Duran was still smart enough as a boxer to give all but the topnotch fighters a lot of trouble. He lost controversial decisions to Vinny Pazienza in their first fight, flooring him in the process and to Hector Camacho Sr. in their first fight, a decision so bad that Sugar Ray Leonard called it “an early Christmas gift.”

Herbert Goldman in his 1987 ratings ranked Duran as the # 3 all time lightweight. The 1996 Ring Almanac rated Duran as the number one all time lightweight in its “All Time Divisional Ratings”. Gerald Suster, author of “Lightning Strikes: The lives and times of boxing’s lightweight heroes,” also rated Duran as the greatest lightweight ever. The AP named Duran among the 10 greatest fighters of the 20th Century in 1999. The 2002 Ring Annual (Vol. 2) rates Duran # 5 among the 80 Greatest Fighters of the last 80 years. Cox’s Corner considers Duran the # 3 all time lightweight and among the 10 greatest fighters of all time.



References:

Anderson, Dave. 1991. In The Corner. NY. William Morrow and Co.

Boxrec. http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000080

Heller, Peter. 1994. In This Corner. 42 World Champions Tell Their Stories. 2nd edition. Da Capo Press. NY.

Ring Almanac. 1996. All Time Divisional Ratings. London Publishing. Co.

Sports Illustrated. Jan 30, 1978. A Solid Right to the Title.

Sports Illustrated. Jun 16, 1980. No Way Sugar Ray.

Sports Illustrated. Jun 30, 1980. The Brawl in Montreal.

Suster, Gerald. 1994. Lightning Strikes: The Lives and Times of Boxing's Lightweight Heroes. Robson Books. London.

[gixxer]

Ray Leonard....“Sweet as Sugar”
By: Monte D. Cox






The year 1976 will always be a memorable one. Two major events gave boxing a big boost. One was the summer blockbuster movie Rocky and the other was the tremendous success of the 1976 Olympic Team that won 5 gold medals, a silver, and a bronze. The darling of the Olympics was one “Sugar” Ray Leonard. Leonard had an amateur mark of 155 wins in 160 fights. Before he was 20, he won three National Golden Gloves titles, two AAU championships and the 1975 Pan-American Games crown. In the Montreal Olympics Leonard fought with photos of his high school sweetheart Juanita Wilkinson, and their three-year-old son taped to his shoe. It was good copy, but he was not favored to win the gold. A lot of amateur boxing observers thought that the great Cuban left hook artist Andres Aldama would defeat the 20 year old Leonard in the Olympic final. Aldama was virtually a pro and had scored 5 straight knockouts to reach the finals. Ray Leonard proved that he was a great boxer winning with an impressive 5-0 decision capping his outstanding amateur career by winning Olympic Gold.

After winning the Olympics Leonard announced to the press, “The journey is over, the dream fulfilled” and he retired from boxing. Leonard had hoped to cash in on endorsements but they never came. With the bills piling up and sickness in his family he decided to turn professional.

Critics have accused Ray Leonard of being a fraud, a product of careful management and television network marketing executives. An examination of Leonard’s record reveals that such criticism is unjust. On his way to the welterweight championship he defeated legitimate top contenders such as Pete Ranzany¸ Armando Muniz, and Randy Shields, and top 10 middleweight contender Marcos Geraldo. In his career he would defeat 4 current or future Hall of Famer’s, Wilfred Benitez, Roberto Duran, Thomas Hearns and Marvin Hagler.

It was a battle of the unbeaten when Ray Leonard challenged Wilfred Benitez for the linear and WBC Welterweight championship on Nov 30, 1979 in Las Vegas. Benitez was an outstanding boxer, a defensive master who was the youngest world-boxing champion ever at age 17, when he defeated the legendary Antonio Cervantes for the Jr. welterweight title. Benitez then moved up defeating a solid professional champion in Carlos Palomino for 147-pound honors. The defending champion, Benitez was 38-0-1 (25 ko’s) and Leonard the #1 ranked challenger was 25-0 (16 ko’s).

In a tactical boxing match in which Ray Leonard was full of admiration for is opponent’s defensive prowess, “Sugar Ray” stated, “No one can make me miss punches like he did.” Ray opened quickly winning the first 3 rounds on his slightly superior hand speed and jab, scoring a flash knockdown in the third. Then beginning in the 4th Benitez changed tactics and began fighting like Leonard; it was a difficult match for Ray from this point with Benitez making Ray miss often. “It was like looking in a mirror,” Leonard later said. In the 6th round the fighters clashed heads and a cut was open on Benitez forehead. It wasn't until the championship rounds that Ray began to take over the fight. In the 11th Ray knocked out Benitez mouthpiece, in the 15th a strong uppercut sent the champion to the canvas. Although Benitez got up the referee stopped the fight after two more punches. Ray Leonard was the new Welterweight Champion of the world.

When Ray Leonard faced challenger and all time great lightweight champion Roberto Duran, Ray was undefeated in 27 professional fights. Duran, a living legend amongst boxing fans, came into the contest with an impressive record of 71-1.

In his first fight with the Panamanian superstar Leonard was forced to fight much of the battle at close quarters. Duran, pushed, shoved and mauled Leonard to the ropes. Duran had the edge, hurting Leonard early in the second round with a right hand, left hook combination from the outside. After that Leonard elected to fight inside with Duran, which was just Roberto's game. Surprisingly to many Leonard fought very well in this type of battle. They fought at an extremely fast pace, Duran averaging a whopping 92 punches a round in this classic war. The final scorecards were 145-144, 146-144, and 148-147 in favor of Duran. Leonard earned more respect in this defeat that in all of his other victories put together to this time.

It was rumored that Duran allowed himself to live the high life and became grossly out of shape after his victory over Ray. Leonard forced an immediate rematch exercising his rights under their contractual agreement. The rematch turned out to be an embarrassment as Ray boxed and moved more effectively. In the 8th round Duran signaled he did not want to continue, saying “No Mas, No Mas.” Leonard regained his title although the fight and Duran’s reasons for quitting remain controversial.

Next up for Ray was his fight with unbeaten Ayub Kalule, World Jr. Middleweight Champion. Kalule gave Leonard a tough fight that was closely contested, but in round 9, Leonard connected a huge right to the chin that sent Kalule down. Leonard had captured his second divisional title.

There was only one big fight left for Ray at welterweight. Leonard was the WBC and linear Welterweight boxing champion. But the WBA champion was Thomas Hearns. Hearns was 32-0, with 30 knockouts. At 6’1” he was very tall for a welterweight and he knew how to maximize his leverage to put tremendous power into his punches. He won his title by starching Mexican slugger Pipino Cuevas in two rounds. Hearns because of his superiority in height, reach and presumed greater punching power was a 6 ½ -5 favorite. It was a match up that fans clamored for.

Tommy Hearns controlled the fight with his long jab for the first 5 rounds. By the 3rd round Ray’s eye was developing a mouse. Then in the 6th Leonard turned Tiger changing his style becoming aggressive and demonstrating that he had power of his own ripping a double left hook under and over that had Tommy in serious trouble. In the 7th Leonard battered Hearns from pillar to post. The roles were now reversed with Leonard stalking Hearns the prey had become the predator.

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In the 9th Hearns began to box and use his jab from the outside. Ray’s left eye was swelling badly. After 12 rounds Hearns had a clear edge in points. It was during the moment between rounds 12 and 13 that Leonard's trainer, Angelo Dundee, said the now famous words of “You're blowing it, son! You're blowing it.” In the 13th Leonard exploded pounding Hearns and nearly knocking him through the ropes. In the 14th Leonard was determined to finish his badly hurt opponent and did so with a flurry of punches to the head and body. Hearns was offering no resistance against the ropes when Ref Davey Pearl finally stopped the contest. Ray Leonard was undisputed Welterweight Champion of the World. Ray Leonard proved that he was as sweet as Sugar and a worthy successor to the title of “Sugar Ray”.

After defending the title just once more it would be discovered that Leonard was suffering from a detached retina. After having surgery to repair the damage to Leonard's eye he retired from boxing in 1982. He would fight only once more in the next 5 years before making the most unlikely of comebacks.

In November 1983 Ray did the color commentary for the Marvin Hagler – Roberto Duran middleweight championship bout. Leonard revealed after the fight that he noticed Hagler could be hit with lead rights, and that he wasn't nearly as effective when he had to play the role of the aggressor for an entire fight. Frank Lotierzo wrote, "It is interesting that in the only two title fights where Hagler was forced to go the distance, against Duran and Leonard, he was forced to fight as the aggressor the entire fight."

On April 6, 1987 Ray Leonard was a 3-1 underdog against the undisputed middleweight champion Marvelous Marvin Hagler. 46 of 50 boxing experts polled picked Hagler to win, virtually all of those picked Hagler by knockout.

They were all wrong! Leonard demonstrated that he learned his lessons from the Duran fight well, as he proved that Marvin was not truly adept at cutting off the ring. Marvin simply followed Ray around instead of stepping in front of him to cut off his escape. Leonard avoided Hagler’s right hand and boxed a smart fight. Ray swept the early rounds on the official cards building an early lead. By dancing, moving and controlling ring center Ray was the superior ring general who fought the only fight he could and did so effectively enough to win. Leonard did not just throw pitty-pat punches as some critics’ claim. Hagler was not able to just walk through Leonard's punches. The fact is Hagler was not able to maintain a sustained attack as Leonard confounded him, out boxed him and continually beat him to the punch.

Leonard won a close, but deserved split –decision to become the Middleweight Champion of the world, making him a legitimate Triple Crown champion. Jim Murray writing in the LA Times said, “He just didn’t outpoint Hagler, he exposed him. He made him look like a guy chasing a bus. In snow.” Sports Illustrated called Ray Leonard’s victory over Marvin Hagler “his finest hour.”

Leonard would retire and un-retire several more times, winning a version of the light-heavyweight title against Donnie Lalonde, beating Roberto Duran for the middleweight title after Roberto’s stunning victory over Iran Barkley, drawing with Thomas Hearns in their rematch and eventually losing to Terry Norris and in his last fight at age 40 to Hector Camacho.

Ray Leonard was rated by Ring magazine as the # 3 all time welterweight in their 1996 All Time Divisional Ratings, among the 20 greatest fighters of all time in 2000 and among the 10 best fighters of the last 80 years in 2002. The IBRO (International Boxing Research Organization) rated Leonard as the # 2 welterweight of all time in their 2005 member poll.

[Panamaniac]

Thread "Box Score" (as of 8-21-07)

Since the the thread-starter did not post a poll, here's the breakdown by the numbers:

• Posts - 117
• Posters - 38
• For Duran - 26
• For Leonard - 8
• Inconclusive - 4

Conclusion: It is the opininon of most (68.42%) forumers on this thread that Roberto Duran is better than Sugar Ray Leonard.

Personal note: If you asked Leonard himself, he would say that Duran should rank above him on the list of (p4p) all time greats.

[Fox McCloud]

Since the the thread-starter did not post a poll, here's the breakdown by the numbers:

• Posts - 117
• Posters - 38
• For Duran - 26
• For Leonard - 8
• Inconclusive - 4

Conclusion: It is the opininon of most (68.42%) forumers on this thread that Roberto Duran is better than Sugar Ray Leonard.

Personal note: If you asked Leonard, he would say that Duran should rank above himself on the list of (p4p) all time greats.

I can't believe you counted all of that. I guess it's cool since he is your favorite.

Anyways, did Leonard actually say that, or is that just your speculation?

[Ironside]

Since the the thread-starter did not post a poll, here's the breakdown by the numbers:

• Posts - 117
• Posters - 38
• For Duran - 26
• For Leonard - 8
• Inconclusive - 4

Conclusion: It is the opininon of most (68.42%) forumers on this thread that Roberto Duran is better than Sugar Ray Leonard.

Personal note: If you asked Leonard himself, he would say that Duran should rank above him on the list of (p4p) all time greats.

Yes that is true, but the fact remains that Leonard DID beat Duran. And Duran should be ranked higher than Leonard, but it doesn't mean he beats him. ATG ranking is based on accomplishments, and Duran had more accomplishments than Leonard, but he couldn't beat him. So in conclusion, Duran is greater, Leonard is better.