If the "Soviet Union" allowed their boxers to turn Pro, what would it have been like

[Abe Attell]

Dempsey was every bit as quick as Tyson and would have weighed over 200 lbs today, possibly even faster than he was in the 1920's, with modern training and a bit more muscle mass to fill out his big frame.

Wlad Klitschko has some of the fastest hands for a big man I've seen, faster than any black heavyweight I've seen at 250 lbs.

Corrie Sanders had insanely fast hands for a fat 240 lber.

There is a new white heavyweight that I remember seeing footage of who had VERY quick hands but otherwise seemed unimpressive.

Whites in boxing in general are underrepresented but I wouldn't say they are slower on average. It's just that there is a much shallower "white" talent pool in boxing.

For Dempsey: he was fast, but I don't see him as fast as Tyson...if you add weight, you can get faster, but I do think that it is more likely that you will get slower...and yes, with Dempsey's frame, he would of easily been over
200 pounds...I could see a power increase, but not so sure about speed.
And I am not sure about using Tyson as an example of "Modern Technology" since he was trained by an "Old School" teacher who continued the same training, although I am not totaly sure about everything on that subject.
You do also know that they had weight-training back then, don't you?
John L. Sullivan actually lifted weights, according to an article I read.



For Wlad and Sanders: two big fighters that are fast, agreed...don't want to go into a long conversation, but that is "two" vs. ?

[hugh grant]

Never saw a "White" fighter at Heavyweight that could do what Ali did...haven't seen another Mike Tyson, a 220 pound fighter that can move like that...still hoping to see the "White" version of Roy Jones Jr., Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard, etc.

I know you can use Wille Pep for the Whitaker argument, but there seems to be more "movers" with "Speed" per "Black" than "White"

Never seen a white fighter who could do what Ali did. Well there arent many black fighters that can do what Ali did. I think more blacks take up boxing so yoiu are more likely to find those types of fighters that you say. White version of RJJ. Isnt Joe Calzaghe a similar type version. Also depends what you mean white version of RJJ. Define it a bit more clearly. The white version is probably sitting in an office pushing a pen without realizing latent talents.

[Abe Attell]

Never seen a white fighter who could do what Ali did. Well there arent many black fighters that can do what Ali did. I think more blacks take up boxing so yoiu are more likely to find those types of fighters that you say. White version of RJJ. Isnt Joe Calzaghe a similar type version. Also depends what you mean white version of RJJ. Define it a bit more clearly. The white version is probably sitting in an office pushing a pen without realizing latent talents.

I was actually waiting for that...the same goes for Ray Robinson.

Joe and Roy are different, that is a bad comparison in my opinion.


There was a guy from England that was a sports writer or something that said that about Ali...if Ali would of grown up in a different place, been educated, he wouldn't have been a boxer.

I think my point has to do when boxing was really "alive", like prior to WWII.

[K-DOGG]

I was actually waiting for that...the same goes for Ray Robinson.

Joe and Roy are different, that is a bad comparison in my opinion.


There was a guy from England that was a sports writer or something that said that about Ali...if Ali would of grown up in a different place, been educated, he wouldn't have been a boxer.

I think my point has to do when boxing was really "alive", like prior to WWII.

What about Benny Leonard and Stanley Ketchel and Jim Jeffries and Gene Tunney and Harry Greb and Mickey Walker and Jimmy Wilde.......etc?

[K-DOGG]

Race......is overrated.

[Banderivets]

Well sure people from different regions of the world develop to survive in their environment.

Look at Africans look at Scandinavias, Central Euros etc.


Who you see running marathons, some skinny dude from Ethiopia.

Who you see pulling trains at strongman? Poles, Ukrainians...


However take both and train them in the same place with same trainers and the end result will be the same.


Initialy certain people have strength and weakneses over others, but once you are proffesional and start to concentrate on one sport one task those differences get smaller and smaller.


I guess the argument always is that africans are "faster" then euros, well euros are "stronger" then africans. You need both in boxing. It all balances eventualy.

[Abe Attell]

What about Benny Leonard and Stanley Ketchel and Jim Jeffries and Gene Tunney and Harry Greb and Mickey Walker and Jimmy Wilde.......etc?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying African Americans are "Superior", NO, but there does seem to be "something" with a slight advantage per family.

Notice you put Benny Leonard, I actually like to use him as an example of great fighters...also like to use him as proof that "***s" can fight, although I have mixed opinions on this considering if being ***ish is actually an ethnic group or just a belief system, but that is another topic.

Kind of like in Football (NFL): there will always be fast "White" athletes, but if you look at it, at that level, who have bigger numbers per (average).

Or basketball..

Maybe it is specific training from a young age that helps also, not sure.

But, when an Coach says, "We need more SPEED," you think he is referring to something?

[Abe Attell]

Well sure people from different regions of the world develop to survive in their environment.

Look at Africans look at Scandinavias, Central Euros etc.


Who you see running marathons, some skinny dude from Ethiopia.

Who you see pulling trains at strongman? Poles, Ukrainians...


However take both and train them in the same place with same trainers and the end result will be the same.


Initialy certain people have strength and weakneses over others, but once you are proffesional and start to concentrate on one sport one task those differences get smaller and smaller.


I guess the argument always is that africans are "faster" then euros, well euros are "stronger" then africans. You need both in boxing. It all balances eventualy.

I heard it was only actually a small region that have this type of talent...I was also reading about that Ponce De Leon fighter, and his people are supposedly historically known for their stamina.

A Latvian women won this year in the women's competition in NY.

Genes still play a role. Take dogs for example, Greyhound vs a Lab, who is faster? Greyhound vs German Shepherd, who is stronger?


I am saying there can be a "slight" difference per/average.

Like in Football, Bo Jackson, Barry Sanders, Tomilson, etc. Where's my "White" Running Back? maybe coaches just don't play "White" people, I don't know.



I don't know, I could be stretching it with ignorance, and be wrong, but lets get some talent in there then.



World's a different place now though, Steroids/Hormones have taken over.

[Nautilus]

Well sure people from different regions of the world develop to survive in their environment.

Look at Africans look at Scandinavias, Central Euros etc.


Who you see running marathons, some skinny dude from Ethiopia.

Who you see pulling trains at strongman? Poles, Ukrainians...


However take both and train them in the same place with same trainers and the end result will be the same.

You can not make an elite weightlifter be an elite marathone runner.

This is impossible. The analogy is that you can not make a pull horse into an Arabic race horse.

[Kid Achilles]

Abe,

You cannot seriously compare dog breeds to human ethnicities. The difference, genetic wise, between two entirely different breeds of dogs is so vast compared to the genetic difference between humans of different ethnicities. That isn't a valid comparison at all.