Joe Louis is overrated

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Good point, but sometmes there are gray areas in that sense. Even if you beat better opposition than another still doesn't make you a better fighter. It could very well be that that fighter didn't have the opportunity to fight better opposition.

Very true....One could argue that Young Tyson didn't have good opposition in Comparison too Lennox Lewis, however I think young Tyson would beat Lennox Lewis....

[butterfly1964]

Very true....One could argue that Young Tyson didn't have good opposition in Comparison too Lennox Lewis, however I think young Tyson would beat Lennox Lewis....

Exactly my point.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Exactly my point.

what it comes down too is a fighters abilities...the only thing a record does is access more or less how much a fighters been tested...

Using Tyson again, one could argue that Tyson never fought anybody of Lewis' height and weight with that amount of skill (because Tyson did fight people around Lewis' height and weight however IMO Lewis was better then them) and that he didn't have his chin tested against a hitter like Lewis, etc etc etc....But just by looking at Tyson's fighting and the few times somebody did dare go toe to toe and Tyson took hits you can tell that Tyson's chin was strong enough to take some punches by Lewis'....

so yes a record will tell you how tested somebody is however it doesn't necessarily tell how skilled somebody is...

[BoxingFan2]

I have problem with Louis that he never fought black fighters of the time. The first black man he fought after he became champion he lost to, or should have lost to (Walcott). Fight was given to Louis but most of people thought Walcott won, including Louis himself. They were both the same age. You can't say Louis was old, Walcott was also. He won rematch and I give him credit for that. Another thing is he lost to Schmeling. Schmeling not just beat Louis but Louis never had a chance after fourth round and took tremendous beating, anoter words, totally dominated. Yes, he won rematch but two years later. Schmeling was not the same Schmeling that beat Louis, and Louis was in his prime. It was too much pressure on Scmeling fighting in U.S and that punch to kidney really finished him. That punch looked illegal to me. Louis would beat Schmeling in that fight no matter what but I just wanted to point another fact regarding their second bout. All this said I still rank Louis second next to Ali. Liston, Foreman and Holmes are other three heavyweigths in my top five.

[butterfly1964]

I have problem with Louis that he never fought black fighters of the time. The first black man he fought after he became champion he lost to, or should have lost to (Walcott). Fight was given to Louis but most of people thought Walcott won, including Louis himself. They were both the same age. You can't say Louis was old, Walcott was also. He won rematch and I give him credit for that. Another thing is he lost to Schmeling. Schmeling not just beat Louis but Louis never had a chance after fourth round and took tremendous beating, anoter words, totally dominated. Yes, he won rematch but two years later. Schmeling was not the same Schmeling that beat Louis, and Louis was in his prime. It was too much pressure on Scmeling fighting in U.S and that punch to kidney really finished him. That punch looked illegal to me. Louis would beat Schmeling in that fight no matter what but I just wanted to point another fact regarding their second bout. All this said I still rank Louis second next to Ali. Liston, Foreman and Holmes are other three heavyweigths in my top five.

The first black man Louis fought after winning the title was not Walcott, it was John Henry Lewis in 1938.

[BoxingFan2]

Sorry, I didn't know for that fact, but did Louis fight any other black man of that time after he became champion. I know he fought Charles when Charles was champion. I think Louis was old by then, but Charles would always be tough for Louis.

[Yogi]

You discrediting head-to-head matchups doesn't sound any better than me discrediting accomplishments, you do realize that, don't you?

This statement of yours kinda sounds dumb, Butterfly, but lets see if it still does after thinking about it for a moment...

Hmm?

Person A is discreditting some mythical, generally biased, and 100% completely unprovable theories of what one only "thinks" (or "wants" in some cases) may happen, which the idea is itself faulty in logic even if going by fact based (percieved far inferior fighters constantly defeat the percieved superior fighter all the time, and have done so since the beginning of the sport).

Person B is discreditting some non-mythical, always objective, and 100% completely provable view based on FACTS.

Hmm?

Yep, it still sounds dumb.

But Butterfly...if you told me you had a 100% accuracy (or even close to that) on predicting fights beforehand that have actually happened, then I would say go for it with your heavyweight ranking based entirely on 100% mythical matchups. Then again, if you're like the rest of us who predict a few right here, one or two wrong there, and go on streaks of good luck & bad luck with this fight predicting stuff, then I'd say you're way of ranking fighters is very...

That might be where I put that "dumb" word again.

[Cambria]

I think Joe needs to be considered top 5. He did defend his title what was it, 21 times? People consider B-hop one of the best Middles because of him defending his title for so long.

I don't know, I respect his era but I am not sure about one of the top 2 spots. I say...

1. Marciano - 49-0 - Nuff Said
2. Ali - Probably the best era because boxing was at its peak. I do think current heavys or slightly retired heavys would smash some of them
3. Lewis (People are going to laugh at this but hindsight is 20/20 and he will be thought of that high ranked 10-15 years from now, maybe sooner)
4. Louis - 21 times he defended the crown, you gotta respect that
5. John Ruiz - Just Kidding. I would go with Dempsey or Foreman. (I like both personally)

[Abe Attell]

I think Joe needs to be considered top 5. He did defend his title what was it, 21 times? People consider B-hop one of the best Middles because of him defending his title for so long.

I don't know, I respect his era but I am not sure about one of the top 2 spots. I say...

1. Marciano - 49-0 - Nuff Said
2. Ali - Probably the best era because boxing was at its peak. I do think current heavys or slightly retired heavys would smash some of them
3. Lewis (People are going to laugh at this but hindsight is 20/20 and he will be thought of that high ranked 10-15 years from now, maybe sooner)
4. Louis - 21 times he defended the crown, you gotta respect that
5. John Ruiz - Just Kidding. I would go with Dempsey or Foreman. (I like both personally)

That "49-0, Nuff said" bull**** needs to stop. I could get Foreman to fight
40+ times, win the title, and then go on root to make some defenses and tell him to retire, it doesn't make him able to say "I am 49-0, nuff said."

You give the Marciano career fights to somebody like Foreman, Ali, Tyson, Lewis, Dempsey, etc., I will show you fighters that can say the same then.


Ali has the best resume, so take the 49-0, nuff said bull****, and think about what I said.

That said, to be fair, like I have said many times before, comparing Marciano with the bigger heavyweights is probably unfair, so who he fought, was most likely fair, even if some weren't exactly in their prime.
He was also a good fighter, and the fact that he started late in life to be a prize fighter, to rise as high as he did, is impressive...so it has nothing to do with him as it has to do with the constant hearing of how he could knock down Godzilla because "hey, he is 49-0, nuff said"...give a better argument, that is my point.

But everybody has their opinions, so fair enough.

[Animal Squabbs]

the 49-0 is a lie. Rocky Marciano turned pro under a different name and lost his first fight. He then moved and changed his name to Rocky Marciano to compete in the amateurs again then he turned pro and went 49-0. The 49 win streak is somewhat impressive but Rocky Marciano is 49-1.