Johnson - Flynn most complete film of the fight

[QueensburyRules]

I got to go with you on this one. I just watched the first five rounds - other than a few jabs, JJ did nothing but grabbing. NOTHING.

Now there was something interesting about the film. At one point in the fourth (I hope I got that right) JJ opens up on Flynn, nails him with a good shot, Flynn staggers back, and JJ begins to move at him.

The film then jumps and the fighters are clinching again.

I wonder if someone didn't edit out JJs best moments?

- - Just about all them ol' films can be seen as specious without a film specialist study of the actual film.

Near as I can tell, no Holy Grail of the original Cooper/Ali film exists for public perusal. What we see are edited copies.

[Dr. Z]

I got to go with you on this one. I just watched the first five rounds - other than a few jabs, JJ did nothing but grabbing. NOTHING.

Now there was something interesting about the film. At one point in the fourth (I hope I got that right) JJ opens up on Flynn, nails him with a good shot, Flynn staggers back, and JJ begins to move at him.

The film then jumps and the fighters are clinching again.

I wonder if someone didn't edit out JJs best moments?

This is the full fight. Lots of grabbing a short, limited man in Flynn . I did not say Flynn was winning at the time of the DQ. The poster known as Houdlni lies! Johnson was not holding you say? LOL. Good grief, just disappear.

This was not a case of Johnson having his way with a much shorter and lighter Burns. It could have been another Marvin Hart moment, where Johnson faded during the second half of the 20 rounds and lost, except there were 45 round to fight here under the Las Vegas sun in July. Willard as we know came on later to wear Johnson down in 26 rounds.

Opinions from those at ringside may shock you! Read them - Dr. Z.



W.W. Naughton

That Johnson had scored the most punches and had brought the most blood was something that could not be denied, but to say he looked a winner at the time of the interference is a different matter. It was the opinion of the majority of the spectators that if Flynn could have kept his temper and fought cleanly he could have worn Johnson down.


Sandy Griswold

Jack Johnson is a great fighter, but luckier than he is great. After being battered in the fiercest and most merciless style for nine rounds this afternoon, he was awarded a victory over Jim Flynn simply because Referee Ed Smith lacked the per****uity to distinguish between the manner and mode of fouling both men adopted early in the blood fray. He considered the offending of the awful white demon from Pueblo the most flagrant, and for this reason gave the fight to the black, but not on account of his fouling, but because the men had agreed that he should give the man whom he thought had the better of it on the occasion of any interference by the officers of the law or otherwise.

This occurred after one minute and ten seconds in the ninth round, when both men were swathed in gore and fighting like raging beasts in an inferno.
...
Yet one was as guilty as the other, and as far as the breaking of the Queensberry code was concerned, both were equally culpable. The trouble was Flynn's offense was both the most palpable and the most damaging, as he had been shaded in a majority of the rounds and had shed the most of life's red fluid. Mr. Smith considered his course justifiable in awarding the verdict to Johnson when Captain Fornoff of the mounted rangers, with several of his wild and wooly men, with hands on their big guns, leaped up over the press chairs and into the arena and called a halt.

My! Oh, my! What a glorious intervention that was to Jack Johnson. What a marvelous dispensation of providence in the very nick of time! With his massive black jaw golterous and awry from the terrific overhand left crashes Flynn had landed on it, with his mouth exuding clots of thick and agglutinative blood and his stomach hammered back flat against his vertebrae, Edward Smith failed to see that he was a rumbling shell of his former manhood and in a few more rounds would have been beaten stiff. But Flynn, with his split and fractured nose, his face a mask of smeary gore and his whole torso and upper limbs swathed as in a scarlet sweater, his eyes, wild, fierce and terrible, with the ravages of hatred, vindictiveness and victory but his form upright, rigorous and replete with savage life and earnestness, was the beaten man and according to the compact entered into before the fight, was entitled to all the glory of being denominated as the victorious winner.

While it was undoubtedly a mistake of Smith's it was certainly as he and many others saw it, but a greater mistake of Flynn's. With absolute victory within his grasp, he, in his hatred and passion, tossed it away. There was no call for his repeated butting the negro under the chin, he was winning with most astounding rapidity as it was, and he could well afford to have withstood the short-sightedness of the referee, until, in a round or two more, he would have had Jack Johnson, the black champion of the world, either unconscious or groveling at his feet.


T.S. Andrews

These yells had no effect on Johnson. The black even pushed out his stomach at times for Flynn to hit at, just to show the white what little chance he had when Johnson wanted to block him. Yet Flynn did hurt Johnson at times and in a long fight would have had a splendid chance.
...
Flynn made the same mistake that Tommy Burns did in Australia. He tried to carry the fight to Johnson and rough it--just what the colored man wanted. Flynn had one chance and that was to act on the defensive and carry the fight along fifteen or twenty rounds to learn whether Jack could stand the pace.
...
It was a case of the matador toying with the bull, for Johnson certainly toyed with Flynn. There is no denying that Flynn was as strong as a young bull and full of fight, but that is all the more reason why he should have reserved his strength and played to wear down the big fellow.


Otto Floto

There is just a slight chance that destiny knocked at the door of Jim Flynn yesterday afternoon and received a cruel blow that swept away all the chances Jim Flynn will ever have of becoming the world's heavyweight champion. Flynn's foul tactics and over officiousness on the part of Captain Fornoff spoiled what probably would have given the white man an excellent opportunity to wear the crown of supremacy in the realm of fistiana.

Both Johnson and Flynn violated the rules on the Queensberry code. Flynn probably to a greater extent than Johnson. To have disqualified one would have been an injustice unless the other also received the same deal. Johnson continually held and hit his opponent. Flynn made use of his "bean" in a fashion that left no doubt of his intentions.
...
When the battle was stopped both men were strong and able to continue for some rounds further. Neither had been punished to any great extent. The cut on Flynn's nose bled profusely, but outside of that he was absolutely uninjured.

Probably the inexperience of Captain Fornoff in such matters was responsible for his actions. The blood may have frightened him to a degree quite unnecessary to call for the stopping of the battle. Mind, I don't want to be understood as saying that Flynn would have beaten Johnson, but his chances to score brackets were of the best at the time the fight was stopped. Johnson is still a great champion. He is cunning and shrewd and manages to cover up his transgressions of the rules in a manner that is surprising. But he is not the Jack Johnson of two years ago. He is not the formidable fighting machine that set the world wondering at Reno.


John I. Day

For his three months of training, all Jim Flynn has to show is a badly battered face surrounding a broken nose. He did not even make a friend by the showing he gave today. Still, there were some, and among them such a good judge of fights and fighters as Spider Kelly, who declared that had the fight been allowed to go along to a more natural ending instead of being murdered so early, the "white hope" might finally have worn the worried negro to the canvas.

It is true that Johnson showed signs of punishment and long before the wind-up the smile had been abandoned. Though battered, cut and bloody, the white man was at all times willing, and undoubtedly he did land some telling blows in the midriffs of the champion. Never before has Johnson been known to complain to the referee that he was getting the worst of the milling. Yet in the sixth, seventh and eighth rounds he had complaints to make.

[Willie Pep 229]

This is the full fight. Lots of grabbing a short, limited man in Flynn . I did not say Flynn was winning at the time of the DQ. The poster known as Houdlni lies! Johnson was not holding you say? LOL. Good grief, just disappear.

This was not a case of Johnson having his way with a much shorter and lighter Burns. It could have been another Marvin Hart moment, where Johnson faded during the second half of the 20 rounds and lost, except there were 45 round to fight here under the Las Vegas sun in July. Willard as we know came on later to wear Johnson down in 26 rounds.

Opinions from those at ringside may shock you! Read them - Dr. Z.



W.W. Naughton

That Johnson had scored the most punches and had brought the most blood was something that could not be denied, but to say he looked a winner at the time of the interference is a different matter. It was the opinion of the majority of the spectators that if Flynn could have kept his temper and fought cleanly he could have worn Johnson down.


Sandy Griswold

Jack Johnson is a great fighter, but luckier than he is great. After being battered in the fiercest and most merciless style for nine rounds this afternoon, he was awarded a victory over Jim Flynn simply because Referee Ed Smith lacked the per****uity to distinguish between the manner and mode of fouling both men adopted early in the blood fray. He considered the offending of the awful white demon from Pueblo the most flagrant, and for this reason gave the fight to the black, but not on account of his fouling, but because the men had agreed that he should give the man whom he thought had the better of it on the occasion of any interference by the officers of the law or otherwise.

This occurred after one minute and ten seconds in the ninth round, when both men were swathed in gore and fighting like raging beasts in an inferno.
...
Yet one was as guilty as the other, and as far as the breaking of the Queensberry code was concerned, both were equally culpable. The trouble was Flynn's offense was both the most palpable and the most damaging, as he had been shaded in a majority of the rounds and had shed the most of life's red fluid. Mr. Smith considered his course justifiable in awarding the verdict to Johnson when Captain Fornoff of the mounted rangers, with several of his wild and wooly men, with hands on their big guns, leaped up over the press chairs and into the arena and called a halt.

My! Oh, my! What a glorious intervention that was to Jack Johnson. What a marvelous dispensation of providence in the very nick of time! With his massive black jaw golterous and awry from the terrific overhand left crashes Flynn had landed on it, with his mouth exuding clots of thick and agglutinative blood and his stomach hammered back flat against his vertebrae, Edward Smith failed to see that he was a rumbling shell of his former manhood and in a few more rounds would have been beaten stiff. But Flynn, with his split and fractured nose, his face a mask of smeary gore and his whole torso and upper limbs swathed as in a scarlet sweater, his eyes, wild, fierce and terrible, with the ravages of hatred, vindictiveness and victory but his form upright, rigorous and replete with savage life and earnestness, was the beaten man and according to the compact entered into before the fight, was entitled to all the glory of being denominated as the victorious winner.

While it was undoubtedly a mistake of Smith's it was certainly as he and many others saw it, but a greater mistake of Flynn's. With absolute victory within his grasp, he, in his hatred and passion, tossed it away. There was no call for his repeated butting the negro under the chin, he was winning with most astounding rapidity as it was, and he could well afford to have withstood the short-sightedness of the referee, until, in a round or two more, he would have had Jack Johnson, the black champion of the world, either unconscious or groveling at his feet.


T.S. Andrews

These yells had no effect on Johnson. The black even pushed out his stomach at times for Flynn to hit at, just to show the white what little chance he had when Johnson wanted to block him. Yet Flynn did hurt Johnson at times and in a long fight would have had a splendid chance.
...
Flynn made the same mistake that Tommy Burns did in Australia. He tried to carry the fight to Johnson and rough it--just what the colored man wanted. Flynn had one chance and that was to act on the defensive and carry the fight along fifteen or twenty rounds to learn whether Jack could stand the pace.
...
It was a case of the matador toying with the bull, for Johnson certainly toyed with Flynn. There is no denying that Flynn was as strong as a young bull and full of fight, but that is all the more reason why he should have reserved his strength and played to wear down the big fellow.


Otto Floto

There is just a slight chance that destiny knocked at the door of Jim Flynn yesterday afternoon and received a cruel blow that swept away all the chances Jim Flynn will ever have of becoming the world's heavyweight champion. Flynn's foul tactics and over officiousness on the part of Captain Fornoff spoiled what probably would have given the white man an excellent opportunity to wear the crown of supremacy in the realm of fistiana.

Both Johnson and Flynn violated the rules on the Queensberry code. Flynn probably to a greater extent than Johnson. To have disqualified one would have been an injustice unless the other also received the same deal. Johnson continually held and hit his opponent. Flynn made use of his "bean" in a fashion that left no doubt of his intentions.
...
When the battle was stopped both men were strong and able to continue for some rounds further. Neither had been punished to any great extent. The cut on Flynn's nose bled profusely, but outside of that he was absolutely uninjured.

Probably the inexperience of Captain Fornoff in such matters was responsible for his actions. The blood may have frightened him to a degree quite unnecessary to call for the stopping of the battle. Mind, I don't want to be understood as saying that Flynn would have beaten Johnson, but his chances to score brackets were of the best at the time the fight was stopped. Johnson is still a great champion. He is cunning and shrewd and manages to cover up his transgressions of the rules in a manner that is surprising. But he is not the Jack Johnson of two years ago. He is not the formidable fighting machine that set the world wondering at Reno.


John I. Day

For his three months of training, all Jim Flynn has to show is a badly battered face surrounding a broken nose. He did not even make a friend by the showing he gave today. Still, there were some, and among them such a good judge of fights and fighters as Spider Kelly, who declared that had the fight been allowed to go along to a more natural ending instead of being murdered so early, the "white hope" might finally have worn the worried negro to the canvas.

It is true that Johnson showed signs of punishment and long before the wind-up the smile had been abandoned. Though battered, cut and bloody, the white man was at all times willing, and undoubtedly he did land some telling blows in the midriffs of the champion. Never before has Johnson been known to complain to the referee that he was getting the worst of the milling. Yet in the sixth, seventh and eighth rounds he had complaints to make.

In bold above: Where you addressing me

[Ivich]

https://www.historicfilms.com/search...6182i1377o2737

Syndicated boxing writer T.S. Andrews reported on July 5, 1912:
lynn displayed no ability throughout the fight. He was cut about the face until blood ran down his breast in a stream. He was utterly helpless from the first round on and by the sixth was deliberately trying to butt the champion's chin with his head. Time after time, as Johnson held him powerless in the clinches, Flynn jerked his head upward.

Smith warned him repeatedly, but it did no good. In the seventh he began leaping upward every time he could work his head under Johnson's chin. Flynn's feet were both off the floor time and again with the energy he put into his bounds. Sometimes he seemed to leap two feet into the air in frantic plunges at the elusive jaw above him.

Referee Smith forced Flynn back toward his corner half a dozen times. "Stop that butting," he would say, shaking his finger in Flynn's face. "Stop it or I will disqualify you."

"The — Negro's holding me," Flynn roared back. "He's holding me all the time. He's holding me like this," and he offered to illustrate on the referee. Smith evaded the blood smeared arms held toward him and waved the men together again.

In the next clinch—it was in the eighth round—Flynn flung himself upward again. Smith jumped between them and warned him once more. "Next time you do it I'll disqualify you," he shouted at Flynn, but changed his mind, for it happened again and again in that round and repeatedly in the ninth before the police took a hand.

Through it all the champion was grinning. He evaded Flynn's attack with the utmost ease, whether the Pueblo man led with his hands or with his head. Only once in the rounds did he show any wish to end the fight, and yet ringside opinion was unanimous that he could have put Flynn out at any time he happened to fancy, whether in the first or the ninth round.
Newspaper Articles

• The Tacoma Times - July 4, 1912
• The San Francisco Call - July 5, 1912
• The Freeman - July 5, 1912

• The San Francisco call. [volume] (San Francisco [Calif.]) 1895-1913, July 05, 1912, Page 8, Image 12 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress (loc.gov).
• Anyone wishing to know the truth has only to read the ringside reports provided here.
• Swathed in blood?
• Johnson finished the fight unmarked ! lol

[Willie Pep 229]

Ya gotta love history. Ya' never believe they were watching the same fight.

[Willie Pep 229]

What about JJ's grabbing?

Today the crowd would be booing and no doubt by fight's end chairs would have had wings.

I never before tried to look at it from Flynn's POV. The conventional history has always spoke of Flynn's fouls, seldom to never mentioning JJ's excessive holding.

If one wanted to make an excuse for Flynn one might point to Tyson-Holyfield II.

Different details but the same question: Was it frustration with the constant fouling or just a desire to foul out of a fight you can't win?

[QueensburyRules]

- - What are JJ best filmed fights?

Moran and Willard, and that's it.

Flynn, Jeffries, Burns, terrible. Ketchel passable. Any others?

[Mysterian]

What about JJ's grabbing?

Today the crowd would be booing and no doubt by fight's end chairs would have had wings.

I never before tried to look at it from Flynn's POV. The conventional history has always spoke of Flynn's fouls, seldom to never mentioning JJ's excessive holding.

If one wanted to make an excuse for Flynn one might point to Tyson-Holyfield II.

Different details but the same question: Was it frustration with the constant fouling or just a desire to foul out of a fight you can't win?

I could be wrong, but, I don't think clinching was illegal in JJ's era. I'm pretty sure that's a sanctioning body addition. I know the era just prior it wasn't, plenty of guys were actually known for their wrestling. I'm a bit out of practice what with my ban and all. I've been digging into medieval stuff while I was away so I'm struggling to give a name but I'm pretty sure Jeffries had a sparring partner known for his wrestling also named Jim, I just can't recall the last name. Anyway, point is wrestling's a part of boxing in the early gloved era on back until the ancient era.

-Marchegiano

[Ivich]

I could be wrong, but, I don't think clinching was illegal in JJ's era. I'm pretty sure that's a sanctioning body addition. I know the era just prior it wasn't, plenty of guys were actually known for their wrestling. I'm a bit out of practice what with my ban and all. I've been digging into medieval stuff while I was away so I'm struggling to give a name but I'm pretty sure Jeffries had a sparring partner known for his wrestling also named Jim, I just can't recall the last name. Anyway, point is wrestling's a part of boxing in the early gloved era on back until the ancient era.

-Marchegiano

Jeffries regularly wrestled with Farmer Burns ,a famous wrestler.
Clinching was not illegal,and hitting or not hitting in the clinches was mutually agreed on by both parties before the fight,

[Ivich]

What about JJ's grabbing?

Today the crowd would be booing and no doubt by fight's end chairs would have had wings.

I never before tried to look at it from Flynn's POV. The conventional history has always spoke of Flynn's fouls, seldom to never mentioning JJ's excessive holding.

If one wanted to make an excuse for Flynn one might point to Tyson-Holyfield II.

Different details but the same question: Was it frustration with the constant fouling or just a desire to foul out of a fight you can't win?

It's on record that Flynn was practising the fouling in training camp.Tommy Ryan his trainer was so disgusted he made a public statement about it.