Jack Johnson backed out of signed contract to rematch Langford

[travestyny]

Jack Johnson indeed said he will draw the color line. You don't get to re-interpret what he said.

I don't have to. He said, AS AN ACTOR.

If I don't get to "re-interpret" what he said, YOU don't get to assume that managers and promoters are lying with no proof!!!

You just proved yourself that you pull shlt out of your ass and try to switch it up on the fly. First it was McKetrick got to the press first. When I proved the promoters made statements about the fight in the press before him, now it's the promoters were lying, too. lol

Stop it. It's over.

[Willie Pep 229]

I have a life outside of NSB, unlike you up at 2:30 AM and all day long posting here. For one thing, I don't owe you an immediate response. I'll respond to your question when I'm ready, not within some invisible time-line you set for me. You are so quick to want to raise your hands in victory that you now accuse me of running off. I'll answer your question, and then we are done here. Your behavior here and on your Floyd thread is indicative of someone who wants to instigate beefs and push buttons. I've given you every opportunity to conduct yourself like an adult but you chose the low road.

Jack Johnson indeed said he will draw the color line. You don't get to re-interpret what he said. You've done with with McKetrick, Sugar and Johnson as well as other sources. No answer to your endless twisting and turning of the facts is going to satisfy you. Whatever mental or personality disorder you have that is driving this behavior has now gone beyond reason.

To your question...do you think McKetrick wasn't working hand-in-hand with those promoters? They are each claiming the same thing! It is in their best and mutual interest to promote it as such so each of them can cash in. Managers and promoters work hand in hand in case you didn't know that. Haymon himself is one and the same. Kearns and Rickard worked together to promote and manage fighters.

In fact, McKetrick was not only a manger but promoter as well for Madison Square Garden--the venue that he worked with Billy Gibson on while attempting to get a fight with Johnson. As you know, that bit of scandal that allowed someone to be both manager and promoter was corrected with the Ali Act. To add insult to injury, McKetrick was also a newspaper editor. He had a lock on what he wanted the public to believe!

https://books.google.com/books?id=T52fDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA293&lpg=PA293&dq=dan+mcketrick+joe+jeannette&source=bl&ots=8Vg5dmeA6K&sig=ACfU3U1zdzuyMFwgE7Qsig2fh1wRNvvflg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjz5IXEsYHpAhXhmnIEHb2RCQUQ6AEwAnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=dan%20mcketrick%20joe%20jeannette&f=false

The fact that they are on the same page just days apart should tell you they had a mutual interest in getting this fight billed as a title fight. The fact that McKetrick lied that Jeannette was the champion when he wasn't is further proof of his dishonestly.

McKetrick had a reputation for taking liberties with the truth.

"Perhaps it had been McKetrick who started the tall tales about all the knockdowns in the Finish Fight in the first place as a marketing ploy. Like so many managers, McKetrick had a flair for the hyperbole, and a Harford Courant article in June of 1909 intimates that Parisians were getting wise to the little manager with the large mouth. How far would McKetrick go in order to secure bouts for his fighters? In a 1913 article by T.S. Andrews in The Racine Journal-News, McKetrick attributes Jeannette's biracial heritage to the fact that he is "such a fine fellow and such a home body"...described Jeannette as "more Arabian than ne gro," and as such placed him slightly ahead of Sam Langford as heir to the throne of Jack Johnson.

That same year McKetrick told Ripley of Ripley's Believe it or Not that Jeannette had been put down "24 times" in the Finish Fight, and that he had used "two cans of oxygen and goodness knows how much smelling salts and stimulants" to revive him. The intervention McKetrick had devised was certainly one that he himself had faith in, and he hoped for future Finish Fights, no doubt to use his tricks in the corner.

From:

The First Black Boxing Champions: Essays on Fighters of the 1800s to 1920s. Colleen Ayc ock and Mark Scott

Jeannette had been reported down in only 7 rounds by several reporters, but the more McKetrick told it, the more knockdowns were added, reports of 22, 24, 27, and at times 29. Without footage of the full fight we'll never know for certain, but McKetrick's version stuck.

McKetrick also used illegal tactics in an effort to aid Jeannette during the fight, walking around the edge of the ring splashing cold water on him.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...searchTerm=JOE

Didn't Bundini Brown do the same for Ali in round 15 of The Fght?

[travestyny]

Yo on the Real, Ghost. You should write a boxing crime novel. I imagine part of it would go something like this.

McKetrick knew damn well the fight couldn't be made.

To your question...do you think McKetrick wasn't working hand-in-hand with those promoters? They are each claiming the same thing! It is in their best and mutual interest to promote it as such so each of them can cash in. Managers and promoters work hand in hand in case you didn't know that.

McKetrick enters the McMahon Brothers' office.


McKetrick: Yea, boys. I got this fantastic gimmick. So um, you know my boy Jeannette wants that title, right? Wants it so bad that I already claimed the damn thing for him, see? Nah, nobody bought my shlt, but dig right. Here’s what we’s gone do. You know damn well they aint gonna allow the boys to tussle in New York, right? So how’s about you put up $135,850 (adjusted from 1910 to 2020) of your dough, we’ll say the boys are gonna tussle for the championship in the apple, get everyone signed, post those forfeits, kick it up to the commissioners and have them squash it. Don’t worry. You know good old commissioner Frank is down. Oh yea. We’s gonna get paid! Jack is in, don’t you worry about that, as he stands a chance to take that $135,850 off of ya!

Oh, how much can you and me make? Well um you know that profit that we would have made for actually holding the fight. Well my friend…by NOT holding the fight…we stand to do a whole lot worse than that!

Oh yea. Jeannette will love it! And your pockets might be a lot lighter, son, but they damn sure won't be any heavier!


It's rumored that at least one McMahon brother replied with a look that seemed to say...

Just having a laugh, man. Relax. But you gotta admit...this shlt don't make no damn sense

[GhostofDempsey]

It can't be said that he drew the color line, though. Because he did defend the title against a black man.

The color line he drew was against the top four; Langford, McVea, Jeannette, and Wills. Battling Jim Johnson was a journeyman level contender who wasn’t considered on the same level.

So just to clarify....you have no proof that McKetrick got to the press first, right? lol. If you had no proof that McKetrick got to the press first, then why did you say it??????????


And to be clear, all of that's not an answer to the question. You said that McKetrick made it to the press before anyone else. Now you're backtracking and saying, "No no....everyone is lying because I say so."


So now conveniently both the Promotors and the manager were lying and in cahoots. Proof of that? You have none. Got it, buddy!!!

Same promoters that put up $5000 in 1912 that the fight would happen. Yea ok. lol. How the hell does a promoter "cash-in" on a canceled fight where they might wind up losing the forfeit!!!!
OBVIOUSLY THERE WERE NO PROFITS TO BE MADE FROM A CANCELED FIGHT!!!

It's completely loopy what you're saying and it's getting worse!!!!


So if the promoters and the managers are both lying (with no proof) then I suppose it's just safe to say everyone in history is lying and we are left with nothing here.

Thanks! Like I said, this is over, man.

They could still make their money on an exhibition fight. But again, Johnson knew the fight couldn’t be made in NY. Yes, there was corruption all around between commission, manager, promoter, etc. that has been revealed by both of us.

Johnson turned down a $30k+ offer to fight Jeanette in Paris shortly after the NY bout was cancelled. Turned down other lucrative offers as well. Insisted he was the first black HW champ and would be the only, by not fighting the rest. Insisted there was no money fighting other blacks yet fought a lesser opponent in Jim Johnson in a snooze fest that left him with a broken arm.

You insisted all of the fighters were lying, but you believe the promoters and managers. I’ve shown you where McKetrick had a pattern and reputation for stretching the truth. He was both manager and promoter (and journalist/editor) which gave him a lot of clout and leverage to take those liberties, like claiming Jeannette was already champion.

Say or believe what you want, make a mockery, tell yourself whatever you need to tell yourself to rewrite history. As I said a hundred posts ago, I’m content with my assessment of Johnson’s refusal to give them title shots. You could have saved yourself a lot of grey hairs and Zzzzzz’s by agreeing to disagree twenty pages back. Life goes on.

[GhostofDempsey]

Didn't Bundini Brown do the same for Ali in round 15 of The Fght?

Yes, and he was suspended for it too.

[travestyny]

The color line he drew was against the top four; Langford, McVea, Jeannette, and Wills. Battling Jim Johnson was a journeyman level contender who wasn’t considered on the same level.

So does that mean that anyone who says JJohnson drew the color line is a liar and should have all information ignored, like how you claim McKetrick lied about Jeannette being champion and thus he should be ignored? Or is there a bias in your logic here?

They could still make their money on an exhibition fight. But again, Johnson knew the fight couldn’t be made in NY. Yes, there was corruption all around between commission, manager, promoter, etc. that has been revealed by both of us.

Johnson turned down a $30k+ offer to fight Jeanette in Paris shortly after the NY bout was cancelled. Turned down other lucrative offers as well. Insisted he was the first black HW champ and would be the only, by not fighting the rest. Insisted there was no money fighting other blacks yet fought a lesser opponent in Jim Johnson in a snooze fest that left him with a broken arm.

You insisted all of the fighters were lying, but you believe the promoters and managers. I’ve shown you where McKetrick had a pattern and reputation for stretching the truth. He was both manager and promoter (and journalist/editor) which gave him a lot of clout and leverage to take those liberties, like claiming Jeannette was already champion.

Say or believe what you want, make a mockery, tell yourself whatever you need to tell yourself to rewrite history. As I said a hundred posts ago, I’m content with my assessment of Johnson’s refusal to give them title shots. You could have saved yourself a lot of grey hairs and Zzzzzz’s by agreeing to disagree twenty pages back. Life goes on.

Dude, use your brain. How the hell were the promoters, McKetrick, and Joe Jeannette going to profit off of a canceled fight???????

Now you are trying to change the story YET AGAIN because the things you pull out of your ass don't make any sense. You just claimed McKetrick knew DAMN WELL the fight wouldn't be made. Now you're saying they would still make money from an exhibition fight. So now they wanted the fight, or nah? Your story keeps changing and I'm starting to feel bad about dragging you around this thread making you make a fool of yourself.

Why the hell would Joe Jeannette go along with NOT fighting for the title? Does that make sense to you, or are you saying everyone lied to him, so that if he won, there would be an uproar that he doesn't have the title still?????

It's pure idiocy what you are saying.


What's next, you gonna snoop and find some dirt on the McMahons to prove they were the perfect liars to put up $135,000 and lose it just for the hell of it??? Ohhhhh that's right, the forfeit being put up was a lie, too, right? Proof....nope....none. Just a lie because Ghostof can't handle that Jack Johnson accepted a title fight vs. Jeannette.


I'll tell you this. You're just lucky more people aren't paying attention to how you're embarrassing yourself here with this changing story of a manager who does NOT want the star of his stable to be the champion!!!!!



It really hurts you to give this man any credit. He was robbed of most of his money, can't even get a blow job anymore, and he still has people like you telling MORE lies about him and willing to drag anyone else's reputation down just to handle feeling butthurt over him offering a guy a fight. LMAO. It's sad, bro. I really hope people are reading what you write and getting as much of a kick out of it as I am, and I hope it keeps going so I can see the full picture of this fantastic story!


Proof that you have an agenda: Why did you lie that McKetrick got to the press first????. I'm sure you want to conveniently forget about that little gem. My question asked for proof, and I got nothing back from you. So you made it up out of thin air, right? Right?????. Now tell us why you would do that!

And can we please do round 2 of questions. I might want to ask for your proof that the forfeits being posted is false, just so you can come back with a long post that has no proof and I can ask, "Why did you pull that out of thin air with no proof." There has to be a reason you say such things, right?

[travestyny]

I’ve shown you where McKetrick had a pattern and reputation for stretching the truth. He was both manager and promoter (and journalist/editor) which gave him a lot of clout and leverage to take those liberties, like claiming Jeannette was already champion.

Let me just say one more thing about this. I'm not sure how McKetrick became the star of your fantastic conspiracy theory...

But tell me what makes sense. Now I believe that McKetrick was just as scummy as any other boxing manager at this time. Probably no more or less. I do believe he would do what he feels is in HIS best interest. You've shown plenty of situations where he did things in his best interest.

Now think about it. Is it in his best interest that Jeannette fight for the title, or NOT fight for the title???? How does he actually profit from Jeannette NOT fighting for the title??????????

This is common sense. Joe Jeannette NOT fighting for the title does not profit his manager as much as him fighting FOR the title.

Am I right or wrong?

[ShoulderRoll]

The color line he drew was against the top four; Langford, McVea, Jeannette, and Wills. Battling Jim Johnson was a journeyman level contender who wasn’t considered on the same level.

Drawing the color line means no black fighter would get a title shot. Jack Johnson obviously doesn't fit that definition.

You can say he avoided Langford, McVea and Jeannette...but even that would be inaccurate. Travesty has shown proof that he was willing to defend against each of them on separate occasions.

As for Harry Wills, he made his debut in 1911. Johnson lost to Willard in 1915 and was 37 years old. When exactly did he supposedly duck Wills?

[GhostofDempsey]

So does that mean that anyone who says JJohnson drew the color line is a liar and should have all information ignored, like how you claim McKetrick lied about Jeannette being champion and thus he should be ignored? Or is there a bias in your logic here?





Dude, use your brain. How the hell were the promoters, McKetrick, and Joe Jeannette going to profit off of a canceled fight???????

Now you are trying to change the story YET AGAIN because the things you pull out of your ass don't make any sense. You just claimed McKetrick knew DAMN WELL the fight wouldn't be made. Now you're saying they would still make money from an exhibition fight. So now they wanted the fight, or nah? Your story keeps changing and I'm starting to feel bad about dragging you around this thread making you make a fool of yourself.

Why the hell would Joe Jeannette go along with NOT fighting for the title? Does that make sense to you, or are you saying everyone lied to him, so that if he won, there would be an uproar that he doesn't have the title still?????

It's pure idiocy what you are saying.


What's next, you gonna snoop and find some dirt on the McMahons to prove they were the perfect liars to put up $135,000 and lose it just for the hell of it??? Ohhhhh that's right, the forfeit being put up was a lie, too, right? Proof....nope....none. Just a lie because Ghostof can't handle that Jack Johnson accepted a title fight vs. Jeannette.


I'll tell you this. You're just lucky more people aren't paying attention to how you're embarrassing yourself here with this changing story of a manager who does NOT want the star of his stable to be the champion!!!!!



It really hurts you to give this man any credit. He was robbed of most of his money, can't even get a blow job anymore, and he still has people like you telling MORE lies about him and willing to drag anyone else's reputation down just to handle feeling butthurt over him offering a guy a fight. LMAO. It's sad, bro. I really hope people are reading what you write and getting as much of a kick out of it as I am, and I hope it keeps going so I can see the full picture of this fantastic story!


Proof that you have an agenda: Why did you lie that McKetrick got to the press first????. I'm sure you want to conveniently forget about that little gem. My question asked for proof, and I got nothing back from you. So you made it up out of thin air, right? Right?????. Now tell us why you would do that!

And can we please do round 2 of questions. I might want to ask for your proof that the forfeits being posted is false, just so you can come back with a long post that has no proof and I can ask, "Why did you pull that out of thin air with no proof." There has to be a reason you say such things, right?

I told you for the last time to stop with the lying accusations. You intentionally want to be booted off this thread so you can wave your hand in the air like a jackass claiming a hollow victory. I proved McKetrick’s dishonesty. Lying about Jeannette being champion, lying about knockdowns in the McVea fight, and he would later admit to lying about the Johnson vs Moran fight. He was a straight up liar and connected to NY promoters and the press.

THE CONTEST WITH MORAN SENSATIONAL STORY.
BIG BLACK TRICKED.

LONDON, Wednesday Night.

A sensational story has been printed con-
cerning the contest on June 27 at Paris, be-
tween Jack Johnson and Frank Moran, for the
heavy-weight boxing championship of the
world.

"John Bull," a London weekly paper, pub-
lishes a document, purporting to be signed by
Johnson, agreeing to give Moran 40 per cent.
of the receipts, provided the latter lost in
eight rounds.

Dan McKetrick, Moran's manager, admits,
the paper continues, that he was willing to
promise anything in order to get Johnson in
the ring.

All the talk about the big money put up
for the fight was a pure fake for publicity pur-
poses. Johnson provided 2000 dollars (£600)
as expenses.

The big black only realized that he had
been tricked when Moran fought in earnest.
[It was stated that Johnson had been pro-
mised £6000 win, lose, or draw, and £1000
for expenses.]

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/115816205?searchTerm=%22jack%20Johnson%22%20McKetrick&searchLimits=

McKetrick is a proven and admitted liar, yet you continue to defend him.

You can’t prove the fight was a title fight or that Jeannette was champion as McKetrick claimed/lied. You can’t prove that Johnson’s title was stripped or surrendered upon his multiple “retirements” so he could duck fighters. You can’t prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he gave legitimate title offers to Langford, Jeannette, McVea or Wills. You can’t prove that he didn’t say he drew the color line....I did.

Your entire argument has been conjecture, taking liberties with statements and re-interpreting said statements to what you think they meant to say, denying thoroughly researched sources, providing anonymous news articles or ones written by the liar McKetrick himself, accusing all of those fighters of being liars when I have proved McKetrick is a liar. Then you’ve gone on throughout this thread calling me a liar.

Yes, I hope someone does read through all this nonsense to see what type of liar and psychotic you are. You exposed yourself throughout the entire thread and refused to keep it civil. You post an insult and then turn around and say it wasn’t an insult. Again, no one wants to participate in these type of threads with you because of your denials, lies, assumptions, conjecture, weak sources, and refusal to accept factual sources and research provided by credible historians.

So after 35 pages, according to you everyone who doesn’t agree with you is a liar....Jeannette, Langford, McVea, Wills, the historians, scholars, and me. McKetrick was the only honest man, LMAO!

[GhostofDempsey]

Drawing the color line means no black fighter would get a title shot. Jack Johnson obviously doesn't fit that definition.

You can say he avoided Langford, McVea and Jeannette...but even that would be inaccurate. Travesty has shown proof that he was willing to defend against each of them on separate occasions.

As for Harry Wills, he made his debut in 1911. Johnson lost to Willard in 1915 and was 37 years old. When exactly did he supposedly duck Wills?

Travesty hasn’t proven anything. You are dismissed.