Jack Johnson backed out of signed contract to rematch Langford

[Willie Pep 229]

I didn't say anything about what we discussed, and I wouldn't.

But why would I be embarrassed about Bert Sugar's age? That makes no sense. I already posted here that he was born circa 1936.

Right I realized that after we PM, but I didn't at first know you knew so I PM you. I wasn't hiding from the board.

Your wording ******. LOL -- If you go back and look at the way you wrote it, it sounded like Sugar and Kearns had the conversation while Kearns was still Dempsey's manager.

I was just trying to be a nice guy, that will teach me. lol

[travestyny]

Right I realized that after we PM, but I didn't at first know you knew so I PM you. I wasn't hiding from the board.

Your wording ******. LOL -- If you go back and look at the way you wrote it, it sounded like Sugar and Kearns had the conversation while Kearns was still Dempsey's manager.

I was just trying to be a nice guy, that will teach me. lol

I don't even know who Sugar got the message from.

Sorry for the confusion.

Look at it from my perspective. You and I had a major blow up, and then you came in asking what's going on here. I wasn't going to stoke any flames so I let it be after you gave your first reply to Ghostof. Later when I thought things were cool enough we started conversing and I asked you about your previous answer, and I think it's obvious that there is significant proof that the fight would be for the title, and none against that position. You had disagreed first (though you misunderstood what was being discussed) so I asked again....and didn't get an answer at all. Seemed to me like you were perhaps thinking of some way to again agree with the side that had no argument. But you said u had a headache. So I just waitied.

Then I get the DM and I'm thinking...why? I didn't mind but just seemed the only thing different from talking here was that it was private. I didnt' think it had anything to do with Bert Sugar's age. I thought maybe you thought something u might say might not fit an agenda being played out here, so you thought better to say it in private. I certainly could be wrong, especially since I don't think you said anything crazy.

Then when you do post again, it wasn't about the question I asked. It seems that it was about an offer as if ur trying to disprove what I've stated here. Just seemed odd. Again, my point here is only that the man accepted fights with these guys for the price he stated. We can at least give him that.

Sorry for the confusion tho. My sincere apologies.

[GhostofDempsey]

Dude, then just say it was 5,000 if it tickles your fancy. We know his price was 6000.

I don't know why you are doing this. You are just trying so hard when all I've ever said here is that he stated his price, which was $30,000, and it is on record that he had agreed to fight all of these guys at one point in time for around that price. You are trying to pull out all of these weirdo stops to deny it but the proof is there.




Bro. Do you think people are ******? So people believed Jeannette was the champion back then? No...I'm willing to bet they didn't.

And why is this important? He wasn't "lying." What he was saying is, OK, you retired. My guy is the next logical guy. It's his....to which everyone else probably sighed and said, "Yea, right."

To me it's similar to staging a coup. You make an attempt, and fail. But we don't label it a lie. He tried to say the title was Jeannette's, and it was probably ignored.

I don't know what that has to do with the proposed fight being for the title. It's this weird deflection by you that has gone nowhere. The title that was up for grabs obviously was Johnson's title.





I don't think anyone knew what would happen. There was talk of a tournament to be held a few times.

Again, what was the process for retiring? I just don't know what you mean by saying he wasn't officially retired. Who does he have to make it official with?

You are providing your own interpretation of what McKentrick said. His own words in that article were "At this time I maintain that Joe, who is to meet Bob Lee at the Eleventh Ward Athletic Club Tuesday night, is the world's champion."

He also goes on in that article "Retire! That is what Johnson did several weeks ago when he was offered $20K to box Jeannette in New York and $30K for a finish fight in Paris. Immediately upon his forced retirement I claimed the title for Jeannette, and consequently Jeannette made him go to the foot of the class."

"I have chased Johnson for two years in hopes of a match"...a clear indication that Johnson didn't want to fight Joe for any price.

As I've said, each of these fighter's have claimed Johnson denied them title shots. It's real simple...if Johnson REALLY wanted to fight them, he would have. He did not during his seven years at HW champ fight any of them.

[travestyny]

You are providing your own interpretation of what McKentrick said. His own words in that article were "At this time I maintain that Joe, who is to meet Bob Lee at the Eleventh Ward Athletic Club Tuesday night, is the world's champion."

He also goes on in that article "Retire! That is what Johnson did several weeks ago when he was offered $20K to box Jeannette in New York and $30K for a finish fight in Paris. Immediately upon his forced retirement I claimed the title for Jeannette, and consequently Jeannette made him go to the foot of the class."

"I have chased Johnson for two years in hopes of a match"...a clear indication that Johnson didn't want to fight Joe for any price.

As I've said, each of these fighter's have claimed Johnson denied them title shots. It's real simple...if Johnson REALLY wanted to fight them, he would have. He did not during his seven years at HW champ fight any of them.

Yea...in the SAME ARTICLE WHERE HE SAYS THAT THE PROPOSED FIGHT (that obviously Johnson agreed to) WILL BE FOR THE TITLE. He says clearly that Jeanette will be the UNDISPUTED CHAMPION after the fight.

The fight was scrapped by the commission, right? You already admit to that, so I don't see what the point is for you to keep going over this. Your story about McKetrick claiming the title for Jeannette has nothing to do with him saying the bout is for the title. And your contention that "he got to the press first" was also proven false. So I don't even know what you are trying to argue anymore.

[travestyny]

By the way, apparently after Jim Jeffries retired, we got a new Heavyweight Champ a month later when he got in the ring to declare the winner of this bout would be the champ. I guess it stuck...

[GhostofDempsey]

Yea...in the SAME ARTICLE WHERE HE SAYS THAT THE PROPOSED FIGHT (that obviously Johnson agreed to) WILL BE FOR THE TITLE. He says clearly that Jeanette will be the UNDISPUTED CHAMPION after the fight.

The fight was scrapped by the commission, right? You already admit to that, so I don't see what the point is for you to keep going over this. Your story about McKetrick claiming the title for Jeannette has nothing to do with him saying the bout is for the title. And your contention that "he got to the press first" was also proven false. So I don't even know what you are trying to argue anymore.

None of that proves it was a title fight. Not sure what you are trying to argue here.

[GhostofDempsey]

By the way, apparently after Jim Jeffries retired, we got a new Heavyweight Champ a month later when he got in the ring to declare the winner of this bout would be the champ. I guess it stuck...

How are these the same thing? Jeffries did in fact retire and remain retired for six years, Johnson did not. Historical fact.

[travestyny]

None of that proves it was a title fight. Not sure what you are trying to argue here.

I can't believe you are still going.


I've offered VARIOUS SOURCES that it was to be a title fight. You have offered ZERO SOURCES that it was not to be a title fight.

Two guys, who were previously at my throat, already came in and had no problem with what I'm saying.

It's just you that doesn't want to give Jack Johnson any credit because obviously you are biased. I'm not trying to convince you. The proof is right here for everyone else who is unbiased to see, and you refuse to post your proof that it wasn't for the title because you don't have any.

The promoters say it was for the title. Jeannette's side say it was for the title. Johnson's side say it was for the title. That would make it clear enough.

[travestyny]

How are these the same thing? Jeffries did in fact retire and remain retired for six years, Johnson did not. Historical fact.

What part of this are you not understanding. Jesus Christ.


The guy was retired for a month. No, the title was not immediately put up for grabs, as you stated it would be. A month after his retirement, he ref-ed a fight and declared that the winner would be the next champ.

Jack Johnson retired for 2 weeks!

You still haven't told us what the process is for "officially retiring." Apparently you know all about how to retire as a heavyweight boxer in 1912, but you choose to keep that secret from us.

Do you plan on answering any questions at all????? What is the proper way to officially retire in 1912? As has been your way, I haven't gotten an answer yet.

I've proven everything I've said to you over and over and over again. I don't think I should have to do it over and over and over any more than I already have. If other guys can get this thing in 2 posts, that shows the problem is with you.

[QueensburyRules]

I don't even know who Sugar got the message from.

Sorry for the confusion.

Look at it from my perspective. You and I had a major blow up, and then you came in asking what's going on here. I wasn't going to stoke any flames so I let it be after you gave your first reply to Ghostof. Later when I thought things were cool enough we started conversing and I asked you about your previous answer, and I think it's obvious that there is significant proof that the fight would be for the title, and none against that position. You had disagreed first (though you misunderstood what was being discussed) so I asked again....and didn't get an answer at all. Seemed to me like you were perhaps thinking of some way to again agree with the side that had no argument. But you said u had a headache. So I just waitied.

Then I get the DM and I'm thinking...why? I didn't mind but just seemed the only thing different from talking here was that it was private. I didnt' think it had anything to do with Bert Sugar's age. I thought maybe you thought something u might say might not fit an agenda being played out here, so you thought better to say it in private. I certainly could be wrong, especially since I don't think you said anything crazy.

Then when you do post again, it wasn't about the question I asked. It seems that it was about an offer as if ur trying to disprove what I've stated here. Just seemed odd. Again, my point here is only that the man accepted fights with these guys for the price he stated. We can at least give him that.

Sorry for the confusion tho. My sincere apologies.

- -Only thing that matters is how many teensys can flop around on the head of a pinhead.

Nano teensy anyone?