Jack Johnson backed out of signed contract to rematch Langford

[GhostofDempsey]

Several historians and scholars agree, Johnson never offered them title fights.

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[travestyny]

- -The future then had everything to do with Dempsey and Wills.

Not only are U deflectingly disingenuous, but U have the IQ of a flatworm.

Did you fall down and bump your head again?

That's twice in a week, pops.

[travestyny]

So do you think that the Johnson vs. Jeannette exhibition was truly a title fight? Any title fight back then, especially for the HW title, would have been big news, posted across every major newspaper in the country if not the world. Yet, some obscure Newark newspaper was the only one with the scoop? A title fight between Johnson and Jeannette would have been headline news with signed contracts/agreements in hand.

It wasn't the only newspaper. I already showed you these.

--The Evening World (New York)



"For the heavy-weight championship." -- The Washington Herald


"To prevent title from slipping away" -- El Paso Herald

What was important about the last one is that it was written BY JOE JEANNETTE'S MANAGER HIMSELF!

What proof do you have that it wasn't for the title?

[Willie Pep 229]

So do you think that the Johnson vs. Jeannette exhibition was truly a title fight? Any title fight back then, especially for the HW title, would have been big news, posted across every major newspaper in the country if not the world. Yet, some obscure Newark newspaper was the only one with the scoop? A title fight between Johnson and Jeannette would have been headline news with signed contracts/agreements in hand.

Some venues would try to circumvent the laws in NYC by claiming the tickets sales for fights were "club dues" and that the fight could still go on since it was a private club and not a public venue.

Every boxing historian, scholar and the fighters themselves have insisted Johnson never gave them a title shot while he was champ. One or two newspaper articles do not change that fact.

No I do not!

IMO it was obvious what Jeannette's manager was trying to pull off. There have been so many 'uncrowned claimants' throughout the game's history, no reason for Jeannette not to take a shot at it. To me it read as just another promotion ploy.**

I was just bouncing around the outside of the conversation looking for info on how the 'verbal' game, ('boxing' vs. 'prize fight.') played out over the years.

Didn't mean for any conclusion regarding Johnson-Jeannette to be drawn from my posts.

This whole New York thing and its definition of 'exhibitions' and sanctioning title fights seems to have a long sorted history both before and after Johnson.

As early as Sullivan-Ryan and as late as Louis-Walcott I, *** New York was screwing up fights. Add in the Louis-Johnny Davis mess or the Jeannette-Dempsey attempted ambush, and on and on goes their bad behavior.

What makes a title fight anyway? A sanctioning body, fan recognition, claimants?

** Did you notice in the article that he pointed out that Jeannette was 'financially well situated' ? Boy that goes against most conventional wisdom regarding Black fighters for that era.

*** In Louis-Walcott I, I am not talking about the 'bad decision' I am talking about how the NYSAC tried, for a second time, to ambush Louis. I support that decision as it was rendered because of the manner in which that fight was handled by New York, moving it from a four round exhibition to a ten round no-decision, only to then change it again to a 15 round title defense, I feel Louis was ambushed and set up to lose. That's why I applaud the two judges that wouldn't let that happened.

[GhostofDempsey]

It wasn't the only newspaper. I already showed you these.

--The Evening World (New York)



"For the heavy-weight championship." -- The Washington Herald


"To prevent title from slipping away" -- El Paso Herald

What was important about the last one is that it was written BY JOE JEANNETTE'S MANAGER HIMSELF!

What proof do you have that it wasn't for the title?

What you fail to realize is that back in that time, whichever manager got to the press first got his headline printed. That's how it was. Jeannette's manager could say or write anything he wanted, especially if it would benefit his fighter.

[GhostofDempsey]

Good stuff from Bert.

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[GhostofDempsey]

No I do not!

IMO it was obvious what Jeannette's manager was trying to pull off. There have been so many 'uncrowned claimants' throughout the game's history, no reason for Jeannette not to take a shot at it. To me it read as just another promotion ploy.**

I was just bouncing around the outside of the conversation looking for info on how the 'verbal' game, ('boxing' vs. 'prize fight.') played out over the years.

Didn't mean for any conclusion regarding Johnson-Jeannette to be drawn from my posts.

This whole New York thing and its definition of 'exhibitions' and sanctioning title fights seems to have a long sorted history both before and after Johnson.

As early as Sullivan-Ryan and as late as Louis-Walcott I, *** New York was screwing up fights. Add in the Louis-Johnny Davis mess or the Jeannette-Dempsey attempted ambush, and on and on goes their bad behavior.

What makes a title fight anyway? A sanctioning body, fan recognition, claimants?

** Did you notice in the article that he pointed out that Jeannette was 'financially well situated' ? Boy that goes against most conventional wisdom regarding Black fighters for that era.

*** In Louis-Walcott I, I am not talking about the 'bad decision' I am talking about how the NYSAC tried, for a second time, to ambush Louis. I support that decision as it was rendered because of the manner in which that fight was handled by New York, moving it from a four round exhibition to a ten round no-decision, only to then change it again to a 15 round title defense, I feel Louis was ambushed and set up to lose. That's why I applaud the two judges that wouldn't let that happened.

There was definitely a lot of ambiguity during that time. Rules seem to ebb and flow with whoever had the most clout. Whichever manager or promoter got to the press first, got their version of a story printed first. That was just how it was back then. Newspapers wanted headlines that sold. There was little to no fact checking or definitive methods of measuring truth from fiction. The video I just posted of Bert Sugar speaking about Langford touches on this.

[travestyny]

What you fail to realize is that back in that time, whichever manager got to the press first got his headline printed. That's how it was. Jeannette's manager could say or write anything he wanted, especially if it would benefit his fighter.

So you're saying that Joe Jeannette's manager is lying to the press about it being for the title?

And everyone believed him because he was first?

How would you even know if he was first to the press?


And what are you basing your information that this was not for the title on? Can you post a source that says it was not for the title?

[Rusty Tromboni]

No I do not!

IMO it was obvious what Jeannette's manager was trying to pull off. There have been so many 'uncrowned claimants' throughout the game's history, no reason for Jeannette not to take a shot at it. To me it read as just another promotion ploy.**

I was just bouncing around the outside of the conversation looking for info on how the 'verbal' game, ('boxing' vs. 'prize fight.') played out over the years.

Didn't mean for any conclusion regarding Johnson-Jeannette to be drawn from my posts.

This whole New York thing and its definition of 'exhibitions' and sanctioning title fights seems to have a long sorted history both before and after Johnson.

As early as Sullivan-Ryan and as late as Louis-Walcott I, *** New York was screwing up fights. Add in the Louis-Johnny Davis mess or the Jeannette-Dempsey attempted ambush, and on and on goes their bad behavior.

What makes a title fight anyway? A sanctioning body, fan recognition, claimants?

** Did you notice in the article that he pointed out that Jeannette was 'financially well situated' ? Boy that goes against most conventional wisdom regarding Black fighters for that era.

*** In Louis-Walcott I, I am not talking about the 'bad decision' I am talking about how the NYSAC tried, for a second time, to ambush Louis. I support that decision as it was rendered because of the manner in which that fight was handled by New York, moving it from a four round exhibition to a ten round no-decision, only to then change it again to a 15 round title defense, I feel Louis was ambushed and set up to lose. That's why I applaud the two judges that wouldn't let that happened.

Beautiful post!

What you fail to realize is that back in that time, whichever manager got to the press first got his headline printed. That's how it was. Jeannette's manager could say or write anything he wanted, especially if it would benefit his fighter.

Well said!

I remember when trying to figure out why either McFarland or Driscoll didn't get a fight fir a belt, I learned that Boxing was like running for political office. Fighters couldn't just be great, they had to have an entire campaign established to achieve their cause. And of course, Champions didn't have to face mandatory challengers...such a thing didn't technically exist.

McFarland might've been the greatest Lightweight ever. Driscoll might've been the greatest Featherweight not named Willie Pep. Their denied title shots are more egregious than anyone else's.

But it's fun rubbing Johnson's defenders' noses in their own feces.

[Rusty Tromboni]

It wasn't the only newspaper. I already showed you these.

--The Evening World (New York)



"For the heavy-weight championship." -- The Washington Herald


"To prevent title from slipping away" -- El Paso Herald

What was important about the last one is that it was written BY JOE JEANNETTE'S MANAGER HIMSELF!

What proof do you have that it wasn't for the title?

That's like your CraigsList postings titled "Looking for Love"... unless of course Love to you is dinner at Applebees and a carton of Newports in exchange for road head.