Jack Johnson backed out of signed contract to rematch Langford

[travestyny]

Yeah, this thread seemed like an attempt to retaliate for the facts you posted about Dempsey never fighting Wills.

But the situations are in no way similar. Primarily because Jack Johnson actually DID fight Sam Langford, for one.

It really aint hard to tell.

[travestyny]

At least he had his dignity.

Can you imagine a Heavyweight needing 14 rounds to beat a Middleweight?

Can you even imagine a Heavyweight fighting a Middleweight!?

Nothing was beneath Johnson.

Tyson Fury outweighed Cunningham by more than Johnson outweighed Ketchel.

What say you about that?


And if that doesn't tickle your fancy, go check out your boy John L. Sullivan's professional career and come back and say the same about him that you said about Jack Johnson

[GhostofDempsey]

Yeah, this thread seemed like an attempt to retaliate for the facts you posted about Dempsey never fighting Wills.

But the situations are in no way similar. Primarily because Jack Johnson actually DID fight Sam Langford, for one.

Again, not a revenge thread, and how many Dempsey/Wills threads have there been on here? Often times threads that have nothing to do with Dempsey/Wills get hijacked and turn into pages of debate and back and forth mudslinging. I've posted about Johnson before, but this was an unexplored topic, or at least one not approached with any level of discretion.

Yes, Johnson fought Langford, when Sam was 23 years old and about 40 pounds and 7 inches smaller. Today certain fans will claim that Tank was "too young" at 23 to step up to better opponents. Do you give Choynski full credit for knocking out a still green 23 year old Jack Johnson?

Once Langford starting hitting his stride and growing into the upper weight classes, Johnson wanted no part of him. Especially when Sam was starting to KO much bigger opponents closer to Johnson's size like Harry Wills.

[GhostofDempsey]

Damn. Great researching, man!

Have you looked at all into claims that Sullivan ducked Peter Jackson?

I recall reading that an offer was presented by Sullivan's camp to Jackson, but he declined.

I dunno the source, though. I really don't even know where to search. But keeping it going makes for good fun around these parts with the knock-off Maxine Walters type.

In either event, Sullivan was pretty much all but retired. And Jackson hadn't even established himself as the best Heavyweight in his adopted home of Australia, let alone the United States (any hope he had of being a contender obviously flat-lined when he began fighting America's best). So the idea that Sullivan ducked him doesn't hold weight.

But if you (or anyone ekse with credibility) has actual evidence which speaks to the matter, I'd be really interested. Obviously, those with ulterior motives have put a lot of energy into crafting false narratives.

I really haven't followed the Sullivan/Jackson saga very closely. I do think it is unfair to accuse a fighter who is on his way out and retiring of "ducking" when their is a prime fighter pursuing him. Sullivan had somewhere about 200 fights by the time Jackson came looking for him, and he was a dyed in the wool alcoholic. By the time Corbett got to him he was washed up completely.

If we talk about fighters who were avoided during that era we have to look at Choynski and Tom Sharkey, two of the more feared fighters of their era.

I liken the ducking accusations to Steve Collins when fans insisted he ducked Calzaghe. Yes, she shunned away from the fight but he also retired after walking away from any negotiations for that fight. Calzaghe was fresh and on his way up, Collins on his way out.

Boxing has always been a business as well as a spectator sport. I'm not sure how compelling a Sullivan/Jackson fight would have been back then. Very difficult to find footage on either of them to compare styles or strengths/weaknesses. From what little I have read they were both aggressive, forward fighters, so it likely would have made for a very action packed fight. Lucrative? I don't know.

[ShoulderRoll]

Again, not a revenge thread, and how many Dempsey/Wills threads have there been on here? Often times threads that have nothing to do with Dempsey/Wills get hijacked and turn into pages of debate and back and forth mudslinging. I've posted about Johnson before, but this was an unexplored topic, or at least one not approached with any level of discretion.

Yes, Johnson fought Langford, when Sam was 23 years old and about 40 pounds and 7 inches smaller. Today certain fans will claim that Tank was "too young" at 23 to step up to better opponents. Do you give Choynski full credit for knocking out a still green 23 year old Jack Johnson?

Once Langford starting hitting his stride and growing into the upper weight classes, Johnson wanted no part of him. Especially when Sam was starting to KO much bigger opponents closer to Johnson's size like Harry Wills.

Johnson DID want a part of him, actually. He was all set to fight Langford again in Australia. So not only did he fight hin once he was also going to rematch him too.

But the bullshit Mann Act charges against Johnson derailed all of that.

[billeau2]

I really haven't followed the Sullivan/Jackson saga very closely. I do think it is unfair to accuse a fighter who is on his way out and retiring of "ducking" when their is a prime fighter pursuing him. Sullivan had somewhere about 200 fights by the time Jackson came looking for him, and he was a dyed in the wool alcoholic. By the time Corbett got to him he was washed up completely.

If we talk about fighters who were avoided during that era we have to look at Choynski and Tom Sharkey, two of the more feared fighters of their era.

I liken the ducking accusations to Steve Collins when fans insisted he ducked Calzaghe. Yes, she shunned away from the fight but he also retired after walking away from any negotiations for that fight. Calzaghe was fresh and on his way up, Collins on his way out.

Boxing has always been a business as well as a spectator sport. I'm not sure how compelling a Sullivan/Jackson fight would have been back then. Very difficult to find footage on either of them to compare styles or strengths/weaknesses. From what little I have read they were both aggressive, forward fighters, so it likely would have made for a very action packed fight. Lucrative? I don't know.

Excellent Point.

Choyinski mentored Johnson and there was some power dynamics in the relationship based upon this fact. Choyinski just is not mentioned much these days...Vis a vis Sharkey, but he was a very technically savy fighter. As I am fond of pointing out...there were technical features of the old style AND they just happen to do a lot balancing out size advantages. A fighter like Choyinski could fight from 3 feet out and set traps, etc.

There was no shame in Johnson losing to Chysantium Joe.

[QueensburyRules]

Johnson DID want a part of him, actually. He was all set to fight Langford again in Australia. So not only did he fight hin once he was also going to rematch him too.

But the bullshit Mann Act charges against Johnson derailed all of that.

- -Not to put too fine a point on it, but Johnson admitted to transporting $ across state lines via his former mistress to set up a cathouse.

Need to check out prominent men of that era charged. Mann Act still in force today, the whole reason ***** a lawyer with 2 daughters refused to pardon him.

[QueensburyRules]

I wish you could take an English class, because that's not it.

- -U sayin' I need Ubonics?

[GhostofDempsey]

Johnson DID want a part of him, actually. He was all set to fight Langford again in Australia. So not only did he fight hin once he was also going to rematch him too.

But the bullshit Mann Act charges against Johnson derailed all of that.

I don't buy it. He clearly moved the goal post on Langford after winning the title. Langford traveled by ship all the way to London to fight him. It was about money and not wanting to risk his title against a much improved fighter.

He conveniently avoided the likes of Langford, McVea, Jeannette, Wills, etc once he became champion. His excuse was there wasn't enough money in it and no one would want to see two black fighters competing for the title. They all accused him of such and it wasn't just a Mann Act.

Johnson fought Langford, McVea and Jeannette while they were all up and coming, never at their best. Didn't want any part of Wills either. That's a long story of it's own, I'll post here.

[GhostofDempsey]

The following Harry Wills quote is an excerpt from pages 360-361 of Joe Botti's book about Joe Jennette:

"Jack Johnson was the meanest of the lot. Jack was a smart fellow in many ways, but in others he showed no sense at all. He got so stuck on himself he had the idea everyone should fall down and worship him. Johnson always wanted to show off. He wanted to attract attention all the time, and he didn't care much how he did it. As long as he made people talk about him he was happy, and he never stopped to think that he was doing himself more harm than good.

"If you were a young fellow trying to get along, Johnson would not show you anything. He would rather show you up instead. Take the way he treated me when we were training to fight Jim Flynn in Las Vegas. I was a young fellow then who didn't know much, but anxious to get somewhere.

"Jack Curley, who was promoting the match and looking after Johnson, offered me a job as sparring partner. I was glad to take it because I needed the money and thought I might learn something from the champion. There was a big crowd looking on the day we put on the gloves. From the start, Johnson tried to make me look silly so he could laugh at me in front of the crowd. Remember, at this time, although I was broke, I had something of a reputation, earned through hard fighting , and a boxer's reputation is his only asset.

"Anyone but Johnson would have thought of that and acted accordingly. All Johnson
could think of was his desire to make me look foolish."

"Of course I expected to be hit and hit hard. I would not have minded that, for I was strong and tough, and it is all in the game. But when Johnson stopped straight boxing and tried to make me look bad, I got kind of sore. Johnson was very proud of his strength. He thought there was no one in the ring his equal in that respect or in any other, for that matter. One of his favorite tricks was to grab your arms, waltz you around and laugh, and then suddenly let you go and uppercut you.

"Well, after he tried that on me a few times, laughing and kidding with the crowd at my expense, I decided I'd see which was the stronger of the two. The next time he grabbed my arms to shove them back, I set myself and threw him across the ring. That wiped the grin off his face in a hurry, for the crowd began to laugh at him instead of with him, something that makes a big difference to these babies who like to show off. Having lost his goat, Johnson began to slug. That was playing right into my hands, for I was tougher and a harder hitter. After mixxing it for a few moments he began to get the worst of it so he clinched and held on, meanwhile trying to laugh it off.

"That was the only time I boxed with Johnson. He told Curley to pay me off and let me go. He didn't want anyone in his camp he could not handle as he pleased. That incident is typical of Johnson's whole career. He never cared how he hurt other peoples' feelings as long as he could make himself look big. Showing off was the cause of all his troubles. At the same time I would like to say right here that if Johnson did not act right when he won the title he was made to pay dearly. Although he could have avoided the trouble that came his way, he was not treated fairly either. I think that all intelligent persons will agree with me that neither Johnson nor the people that undertook to run him out of boxing have any reason to be proud of the way they acted."
From The Baltimore Afro-American. June 13, 1931. Page 14.