Jack Johnson backed out of signed contract to rematch Langford

[ShoulderRoll]

Not sure where you are getting this "emotional" stuff from or that I'm upset. Sounds a little like gaslighting to me. I've been quite cordial here. We are having a discussion which is thus far civil. A little spirited maybe, but otherwise I respect your position.

Johnson was offered several other fights after 1912, turned them all down as I have already posted with timelines.

There is plenty of testimony from fighters of the era and boxing historians who collectively agree that Johnson avoided the other top black fighters during his reign as champion. Newspaper snippets (not full articles) do not provide enough context to the contrary. Even full articles often got ahead of themselves to sell a story. Johnson could say he agreed to a fight, but without signed contracts those words carried little to no weight as we can see by the opponents he chose.

I'll note several instances of historians who agree Johnson drew his own color line, despite fighting a considerably smaller Jim Johnson while champion to a draw.

Regarding Joe Jeannette:

"Although Joe would never again fight Johnson after their 10-round draw in 1907 -- despite constant challenges while Jack was champion -- Joe and Sam Langford would fight on at least 11 other occasions. It should be pointed out that until Joe Louis became heavyweight champion, many white boxers would only rarely fight outside of their race. Accordingly, black pugilists were left to fighting each other again and again. Joe was no exception, fighting nearly half of his recorded 157 bouts against 8 to 10 other black boxers of his day.

Joe's greatest accomplishments came during his three trips to Paris, France. The backlash of Johnson's victory in Australia and Jack's unwillingness to fight any other Black fighters left Joe with very few competitive and profitable bouts in the United States. Joe, hearing about the acceptance of Black fighters in Paris and the lucrative purses being offered, decided to set sail to Europe. Under the guidance of Dan McKettrick, the very worldly, educated, and resourceful editor of the New York World, Joe arrived in Paris in the early part of 1909."

- Tracy Callis, Historian, International Boxing Research Organization

Regarding Jeannette and McVea

"Joe and Sam finished numbers three and four of the Fearsome Black Foursome, and there they will forever stay. Such was the age when James Arthur "Jack" Johnson drew the color line on the rest of the big four".

Colleen Ay****, Historian, International Boxing Research Organization

Johnson fought Jeannette and McVea plenty of times. How many more times should he have fought them to satisfy you?

I do wish he had fought Langford again but at least he tried too. It wasn't his fault that the Mann Act caused Hugh McIntosh to pull the offer.

But at least he did fight and beat Sam one time and that will always be on his record. No one can take that away from him.

[travestyny]

Not sure where you are getting this "emotional" stuff from or that I'm upset. Sounds a little like gaslighting to me. I've been quite cordial here. We are having a discussion which is thus far civil. A little spirited maybe, but otherwise I respect your position.

Johnson was offered several other fights after 1912, turned them all down as I have already posted with timelines.

There is plenty of testimony from fighters of the era and boxing historians who collectively agree that Johnson avoided the other top black fighters during his reign as champion. Newspaper snippets (not full articles) do not provide enough context to the contrary. Even full articles often got ahead of themselves to sell a story. Johnson could say he agreed to a fight, but without signed contracts those words carried little to no weight as we can see by the opponents he chose.

I'll note several instances of historians who agree Johnson drew his own color line, despite fighting a considerably smaller Jim Johnson while champion to a draw.

Regarding Joe Jeannette:

"Although Joe would never again fight Johnson after their 10-round draw in 1907 -- despite constant challenges while Jack was champion -- Joe and Sam Langford would fight on at least 11 other occasions. It should be pointed out that until Joe Louis became heavyweight champion, many white boxers would only rarely fight outside of their race. Accordingly, black pugilists were left to fighting each other again and again. Joe was no exception, fighting nearly half of his recorded 157 bouts against 8 to 10 other black boxers of his day.

Joe's greatest accomplishments came during his three trips to Paris, France. The backlash of Johnson's victory in Australia and Jack's unwillingness to fight any other Black fighters left Joe with very few competitive and profitable bouts in the United States. Joe, hearing about the acceptance of Black fighters in Paris and the lucrative purses being offered, decided to set sail to Europe. Under the guidance of Dan McKettrick, the very worldly, educated, and resourceful editor of the New York World, Joe arrived in Paris in the early part of 1909."

- Tracy Callis, Historian, International Boxing Research Organization

Regarding Jeannette and McVea

"Joe and Sam finished numbers three and four of the Fearsome Black Foursome, and there they will forever stay. Such was the age when James Arthur "Jack" Johnson drew the color line on the rest of the big four".

Colleen Ay****, Historian, International Boxing Research Organization

That's all fine. I don't have a problem with any of it.

All I'm asking is why you are denying that the commission stopped the Jack Johnson vs. Joe Jeannette fight from happening.

Like do you really believe the newspapers.....more than one...are making that up out of the blue?

[GhostofDempsey]

Johnson fought Jeannette and McVea plenty of times. How many more times should he have fought them to satisfy you?

I do wish he had fought Langford again but at least he tried too. It wasn't his fault that the Mann Act caused Hugh McIntosh to pull the offer.

But at least he did fight and beat Sam one time and that will always be on his record. No one can take that away from him.

He fought them when they had less than 10 - 20 fights. Langford gave up 40 - 50 pounds, he was still coming up, was only 23, and some say he may actually have been 20 at the time. McVea had less than ten fights when they fought--he was only 18 the first time they fought, 19 for the other bouts, Jeannette was still starting out as well.

Mann Act or not, Johnson had plenty of other opportunities to fight Langford but he chose not to. As evidenced from these fighter's interviews and historians, he drew the color line as champion outside of Battling Jim Johnson who wasn't in the same league as the others.

[travestyny]

he drew the color line as champion outside of Battling Jim Johnson who wasn't in the same league as the others.

So you're saying that multiple newspapers made up the same lie because they were in Jack Johnson's pocket?

Come on. That makes no sense, does it?

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SDDU19120815.2.73&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------1

[GhostofDempsey]

So you're saying that multiple newspapers made up the same lie because they were in Jack Johnson's pocket?

Come on. That makes no sense, does it?

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SDDU1912...-txIN--------1

I'm not sure what your quote has to do with your question.

I'm saying newspapers did not have a standard of journalistic integrity (much like now), and needed headlines and stories that grabbed attention. This didn't just benefit Johnson, it also hurt him too. Same with other fighters.

[travestyny]

I'm not sure what your quote has to do with your question.

I'm saying newspapers did not have a standard of journalistic integrity (much like now), and needed headlines and stories that grabbed attention. This didn't just benefit Johnson, it also hurt him too. Same with other fighters.

It's a different newspaper based in San Diego. I usually post from the New York Times.

What I'm asking is...when more than one newspaper reports that he signed to fight Jeannette, and at least one of these papers over days and possibly weeks showed Johnson awaiting word regarding whether the fight would be scrapped by the commission..and one gave quotations directly from Jack Johnson responding to the commission scrapping the fight....

You actually believe that was staged by Jack Johnson and all newspapers with such articles?

That would be a huge story that I'm sure even the New York Times would love to hear about today.

There's no way, man. I'm trying to figure out. Do you believe this fight being killed by the NY commission is a lie put forth by Johnson and the papers?

A third paper:

[GhostofDempsey]

It's a different newspaper based in San Diego. I usually post from the New York Times.

What I'm asking is...when more than one newspaper reports that he signed to fight Jeannette, and at least one of these papers over days and possibly weeks showed Johnson awaiting word regarding whether the fight would be scrapped by the commission..and one gave quotations directly from Jack Johnson responding to the commission scrapping the fight....

You actually believe that was staged by Jack Johnson and all newspapers with such articles?

That would be a huge story that I'm sure even the New York Times would love to hear about today.

There's no way, man. I'm trying to figure out. Do you believe this fight being killed by the NY commission is a lie put forth by Johnson and the papers?

A third paper:

What I believe is that Johnson had no intention of actually fighting them while champion. He even said himself that he would not be in a hurry to fight any of them. When we look at the quality of his opposition while champion and beyond, his actions indicate he preferred the easy money against weaker opponents. Jeannette fought him to a close draw in their last fight, back when Jeannette was still inexperienced with less than 20 fights in 1906. Same with Langford, he got one shot in '06, was ducked in '09 when Johnson broke a written agreement, and offers were made to Johnson all the way to 1914 to fight any one of them and he declined. There is only one fight where I can give Johnson the benefit of the doubt--the match with McVea which was pulled after he lost to Langford. There was probably more to that story, but none of this speculation sways the popular opinion that Johnson drew the color line as champ and avoided these top black fighters while champion. He broke a contract to fight Langford, and money that was never promised should not have been a good enough reason to move the goal post and not give Langford his shot.

[travestyny]

What I believe is that Johnson had no intention of actually fighting them while champion. He even said himself that he would not be in a hurry to fight any of them. When we look at the quality of his opposition while champion and beyond, his actions indicate he preferred the easy money against weaker opponents. Jeannette fought him to a close draw in their last fight, back when Jeannette was still inexperienced with less than 20 fights in 1906. Same with Langford, he got one shot in '06, was ducked in '09 when Johnson broke a written agreement, and offers were made to Johnson all the way to 1914 to fight any one of them and he declined. There is only one fight where I can give Johnson the benefit of the doubt--the match with McVea which was pulled after he lost to Langford. There was probably more to that story, but none of this speculation sways the popular opinion that Johnson drew the color line as champ and avoided these top black fighters while champion. He broke a contract to fight Langford, and money that was never promised should not have been a good enough reason to move the goal post and not give Langford his shot.

Jesus Christ. I don't know how you can possibly keep saying this when the evidence has been shown over and over that he accepted fights with Jeannette, Langford, and McVea.


It doesn't make sense for you to accept newspaper articles that fit your agenda and ignore multiple newspaper articles that are against your agenda. It's a bit hypocritical, no?

You accused me of deflecting, but I can't get an answer out of you regarding whether you think it was made up that the New York Commission scrapped the Jeannette v. Johnson fight. I'm assuming you won't answer because you know it's true and it will effectively end this idea that Johnson drew the color line.

I don't know what else to tell you, but it doesn't make sense to keep going over this if you refuse to acknowledge anything anyone says against your opinion.


Before we end this conversation, since it's obviously going nowhere, can I get a final opinion from you regarding the question I've asked about 3 times now.

Do you think it's true that the NY commission called off the Jeannette v. Johnson match or not?


I'm certainly not trying to badger you, but you have repeatedly refused to answer.

[GhostofDempsey]

Jesus Christ. I don't know how you can possibly keep saying this when the evidence has been shown over and over that he accepted fights with Jeannette, Langford, and McVea.


It doesn't make sense for you to accept newspaper articles that fit your agenda and ignore multiple newspaper articles that are against your agenda. It's a bit hypocritical, no?

You accused me of deflecting, but I can't get an answer out of you regarding whether you think it was made up that the New York Commission scrapped the Jeannette v. Johnson fight. I'm assuming you won't answer because you know it's true and it will effectively end this idea that Johnson drew the color line.

I don't know what else to tell you, but it doesn't make sense to keep going over this if you refuse to acknowledge anything anyone says against your opinion.


Before we end this conversation, since it's obviously going nowhere, can I get a final opinion from you regarding the question I've asked about 3 times now.

Do you think it's true that the NY commission called off the Jeannette v. Johnson match or not?


I'm certainly not trying to badger you, but you have repeatedly refused to answer.

I gave you an answer you didn't like. I've had plenty of my sources ignored and some of my questions on this thread go unanswered, so I'm not obligated to answer every possible question that you can come up with in an effort to paint me into a corner. Using snippets I am unable to locate anywhere else on the web.

There are plenty of facts and testimony that Johnson refused to fight any of them while champion. Had he truly wanted to fight them, he would have. He chose an easier route and the rest is history. You can argue this point with me, but you would also have to argue that with historians, writers, and scholars who have done a great deal of research on the matter. The testimony of Jeannette, McVea and Langford is really the smoking gun in all of this.

[travestyny]

I gave you an answer you didn't like. I've had plenty of my sources ignored and some of my questions on this thread go unanswered, so I'm not obligated to answer every possible question that you can come up with in an effort to paint me into a corner. Using snippets I am unable to locate anywhere else on the web.

There are plenty of facts and testimony that Johnson refused to fight any of them while champion. Had he truly wanted to fight them, he would have. He chose an easier route and the rest is history. You can argue this point with me, but you would also have to argue that with historians, writers, and scholars who have done a great deal of research on the matter. The testimony of Jeannette, McVea and Langford is really the smoking gun in all of this.

That you have refused to answer the question again says it all.

Enjoy your day.


If anyone else wants to step in and answer for him, be my guest. And if the facts paint you into a corner....so be it I guess.