The Truth Finally Revealed: Wills ducked Dempsey!

[Willie Pep 229]

So looking at Dempsey and assuming he had a say in whom he fights... I wonder what the perception of Tunney versus Wills would have been back then. Tunney had fought, among others, Greb and was probably looked at as being a tough fight. Also its worth mentioning that Dempsey could have let sleeping dogs lie after the first fight and was willing to do a rematch. And...he was pretty beat up that first fight (both of them were). This tells me in a general sort of way, that Dempsey was not taking a path of least resistance.

I also think its worth mentioning that fighting Greb was a no win proposition. If he wins, he beats a middle weight, If he loses, he loses to a middle weight. So I don't buy the argument that Dempsey was protected because he did not fight Greb.

What of Wills then? First of all... Wills had a really good record and fought great competition. He beat Langford, Mcvea, Jeanette, and Gunboat smith among others. Did he have fight better comp than Dempsey? Yes he did! On this measure alone, he comes out on top... But there are other measures to consider.

One such measure is style. Wills was a crafty fighter with good reach and decent power. Dempsey was a gate crasher. Wills fought quality guys, but he fought many of the same guys over and over. And he never really fought a range of fighters that would prepare him for Dempsey.

Put another way: I would think Tunney was the tougher fight out of the two. Tunney fought more variety of opponent. From the insolent Greb, to the fine boxing Loughren and carpenteir. So its hard to imagine that Dempsey was scared of Wills and willing to fight Tunney.

With that said, Wills was an impressive fighter and may well have given Dempsey a loss, I just do not see it as probable.

This is likely a harsh and possibly an unfair thing to say, but it looks as though Tunney was actually a racist; a fight with Wills would never have happened from Tunney's side.

I don't know what tourney TNY is speaking of, or who ducked it, but I would bet my bottom dollar that Tunney wouldn't have participated in any tourney that included black fighters.

I suspect a Tunney-Wills fight didn't get talked about much.

[Willie Pep 229]

These are always such tangled webs... I think the process is ultimately good though. In this situation with Dempsey and Wills we have many trainers that were around in the 80's and even up to Tyson that said Jack was the best ever. On the other hand, some are now claiming that Dempsey was a protected fighter. So which is it?

It is important to remember that Babe Ruth and Jack Dempsey were the first real mega athletes, at least in the USA. They were both managed...One proof of this is that the Babe was an even better pitcher than a hitter. But pitching and winning is not nearly as exciting as hitting home runs. Fans were catered to first and foremost.

Its hard for me to think of Wills as a real threat to Dempsey. That sticks in my craw a bit. But I am all ears here as these guys duke it out about the contract. I do think Dempsey broke the contract. Is that a big deal? Not necessarily. It did not cost him much.

I look forward to more fireworks in this thread. Too bad that by the time history gets around to the GGG and Canello fight we will be wearing diapers and not remember our own names.

"I was a pretty good fighter, it was the newspaper guys who made me great." Jack Dempsey

[ShoulderRoll]

Welll not exactly...None other than Don Turner, who ingeniously trained Holly to beat Tyson thought Marciano was the best hands down...I think Lou Duva agreed with him as well. Both worked with the Rock. And the Rock would never be confused with having subtlety. Even when watching him slip punches...its kind of like watching Frankenstein do a Waltz in great form...but as Frankenstein never the less.

If it were that simple Shoulder Roll... But is it ever?

On one hand you have Don Turner and Lou Duva, who I consider average trainers.

On the other side you have the likes of Gene Tunney and Ray Arcel who would most certainly not consider Marciano the best. And it's hard to accuse them of not having a good enough boxing eye to appreciate the work Charlie Goldman did with Rocky.

[Willie Pep 229]

False. They signed the contract

http://freepdfhosting.com/677d9f06ec.pdf

[img]https://media.*****.com/media/l3E6uhDAN3W7vylji/*****.gif[/img]

OK so now you have to stop saying Dempsey ducked Wills, obviously he didn't, Kearns signed. LOL Must have been your guy that got cold feet, must have been your guy who backed out scared.

I am going to put aside the BS and try and speak straight to you, but my gut feeling is it's not going to matter.

Kearns never intended to fight anyone in New York with any connection to Tex Rickard. You have to start from that premise before trying to figure out what Kearns was up to, and before you blame Dempsey of anything.

Wills was connected to New York and Rickard. Kearns was never going to fight him. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH KEARNS BEING SCARED OF WILLS.

Neither the failed negotiation I posted or the signed agreement you posted meant anything. Kearns set up that ruse because that was the period when the NYSAC was threatening to strip Dempsey's title if he didn't fight Wills.

The agreement was a stall until the date to strip passed, and until Kearns could find his fight far away from New York, with a fighter disconnected from Rickard. (Shelby/Gibbons).

Kearns used both Wills and Greb to stall New York and squeeze Rickard out.

Dempsey never ducked Wills, Wills never ducked Dempsey. Those two men would have fought in an alleyway if the opportunity presented itself. They were both fighters.

It was the people (with interests) and the (racist) world swirling around them that made it not happen. Notice that the agreement came to nothing anyway.

Funny thing is, that probably the only promoter who could have promoted that fight was Rickard, and he was scared of it, and Kearns was scared of Rickard.

Read the articles for the entire 1922 season and it is easy to see just how hard Kearns was trying to run away from NY and Rickard, and it is also easy to see just how controlled Mullins was by Tammany and the NYSAC.

Everyone, except maybe Dempsey and Wills, was dirty here, but I am starting to believe you really are a 'white fighter' hater and just don't want to see that.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Racism is a modern construct that like all words eventually either expands it's definition or morphs into something different.

Why Tunney never fought a black fighter I can't say, but there is a famous beach photo of him with a little black boy around 8 yrs old.

He accepted Rickard's fight. With Wills, however as the timeline shows, Wills was fading and held out for his last gasp against Dempsey, so that's 2 all time great fights history passed on, 4 if we include Greb in the mix.

[travestyny]

OK so now you have to stop saying Dempsey ducked Wills, obviously he didn't, Kearns signed. LOL Must have been your guy that got cold feet, must have been your guy who backed out scared.

I am going to put aside the BS and try and speak straight to you, but my gut feeling is it's not going to matter.

Kearns never intended to fight anyone in New York with any connection to Tex Rickard. You have to start from that premise before trying to figure out what Kearns was up to, and before you blame Dempsey of anything.

Wills was connected to New York and Rickard. Kearns was never going to fight him. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH KEARNS BEING SCARED OF WILLS.

Neither the failed negotiation I posted or the signed agreement you posted meant anything. Kearns set up that ruse because that was the period when the NYSAC was threatening to strip Dempsey's title if he didn't fight Wills.

The agreement was a stall until the date to strip passed, and until Kearns could find his fight far away from New York, with a fighter disconnected from Rickard. (Shelby/Gibbons).

Kearns used both Wills and Greb to stall New York and squeeze Rickard out.

Dempsey never ducked Wills, Wills never ducked Dempsey. Those two men would have fought in an alleyway if the opportunity presented itself. They were both fighters.

It was the people (with interests) and the (racist) world swirling around them that made it not happen. Notice that the agreement came to nothing anyway.

Funny thing is, that probably the only promoter who could have promoted that fight was Rickard, and he was scared of it, and Kearns was scared of Rickard.

Read the articles for the entire 1922 season and it is easy to see just how hard Kearns was trying to run away from NY and Rickard, and it is also easy to see just how controlled Mullins was by Tammany and the NYSAC.

Everyone, except maybe Dempsey and Wills, was dirty here, but I am starting to believe you really are a 'white fighter' hater and just don't want to see that.

To this I have one simple question.

Did Jack Dempsey break a valid contract to fight Harry Wills with a promoter who upheld their end of the contract?

You've tried every way you can to distort the truth. But the simple answer to that question is, YES!

The fight was there if he wanted it. He decided he didn't. That's the simple truth. No one here has the power to bend the truth, and no one should be trying to. I've backed up everything I've said and if anyone asks I'll do it all over again. And you know it can't be refuted.

Bringing Kearns into it with your revenge thread that backfired terribly doesn't change the facts. I'm not trying to be an *******. I'm just giving it to you the way it is.

[travestyny]

but I am starting to believe you really are a 'white fighter' hater and just don't want to see that.

I had to give this it's own special place.


This is why I give you no respect, you slimy cvnt. Just because you can't handle the truth you go and try to smear me as a racist? What the fvvck have I said that's racist here. You disgusting slimy fvvck.

Your dumb ass got decapitated here because you're an emotional little bltch. This thread is a fcking embarrassment by a little fanboy that's choking to death on the truth.

Demspey ducked Wills. You know it and I know it.


Matter of fact, go point out what I've said here that's racist!

Until then....fvvck off.



"Agree with me, or you're a racist." Unbelievable!

[QueensburyRules]

To this I have one simple question.

Did Jack Dempsey break a valid contract to fight Harry Wills with a promoter who upheld their end of the contract?

You've tried every way you can to distort the truth. But the simple answer to that question is, YES!

The fight was there if he wanted it. He decided he didn't. That's the simple truth. No one here has the power to bend the truth, and no one should be trying to. I've backed up everything I've said and if anyone asks I'll do it all over again. And you know it can't be refuted.

Bringing Kearns into it with your revenge thread that backfired terribly doesn't change the facts. I'm not trying to be an *******. I'm just giving it to you the way it is.

- -U a fantasist who knows his 1,2,3s and ABCs who can't do basic arithmetic or math not read or write with comprehension.

No different from the loon on the street corner spouting end of the earth salvation.

[travestyny]

- -U a fantasist who knows his 1,2,3s and ABCs who can't do basic arithmetic or math not read or write with comprehension.

No different from the loon on the street corner spouting end of the earth salvation.

Are you going to make a point about the topic at hand, grandpa, or are you just going to keep letting me know that the information I've shared cut you deep and is killing you slowly while you drown in your senile ramblings?

[travestyny]

And I owed you this, Silly Willy. Jack Dempsey getting ran out of MSG by Joe Jeannette. Choke on that as well

But by all means. Call me a racist for revealing more truth!