Would American dominance of boxing in the 70s,80s been different

[Marchegiano]

Good post. It is quite obvious that America had many waves of immigration and they all produced...No one was better than another. The melting pot made Americans out of ******s, Chinese, etc. Great fighters, in similar fashion, are forged out of conditions not from some ethnic recipe that finds its way and retains some special prodigious essence.

Whats so special about our melting pot is that individual cultures retain their ways, and also become Americans and here is my damn bone to pick: NOBODY EVER SEEMS TO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE BEING MESSICAN AND AMERICAN...ITALIAN AND AMERICAN....CHINESE AND AMERICAN...ETC ETC ETC...UNTIL SOME NATIONALIST BRINGS IT UP! Americans have been strong enough not to succumb to this ******ity that has destroyed great cities and countries like Lebanon (beruit), Bosnia...where people who had been living side by side with each other one day started killing each other out of national pride.

All these Eastern Europeans train in the same places as everyone else did... Go figure.

Slayer


Y'all can't even ****ing front on that **** right there.

[Marchegiano]

Maybe don't post while drinking?


I will say, it's impressive that you could make a post without mentioning some invented ancient Greek folk hero.

You ducking?

We both know you said some dumbass **** you didn't even think about. It's cool, we all say dumbass **** we didn't put much thought into. Don't be a ***** about it.


****in' WWII immagration That's why from the 1850s-1890s boxing is dominated by Irish Americans is it? WWII uh'comin'? Dumbass.



How about this theory; the only reason America has any challenge at all from any nation on this planet is because of the Americanization of this planet. America is on top, and oh look, all of our best friends do well...hmmm....****in hmmm....USSR, EEs in general, ******, period, ****** bad from medieval periods, through ALL of bare knuckle, and before the USSR banned pros, have you a single name to thump and say but dey had dem a good'en doe? No? Can you English? Okay, how about when Russia is finally a federalist republic? OOOOOHHHHH, no shizzle? The EEs suck a major **** until their nations take a chunk of capitalism and democracy home to them?


Maybe y'all should spend less time trying to figure a dumbass means to cut us down and more time thanking my punk ass for paying my taxes so that this nation can continue to sweep away old world culture and lives for better new world sensibility.



Eat a ****, remember to vote.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Good post. It is quite obvious that America had many waves of immigration and they all produced...No one was better than another. The melting pot made Americans out of ******s, Chinese, etc. Great fighters, in similar fashion, are forged out of conditions not from some ethnic recipe that finds its way and retains some special prodigious essence.

Whats so special about our melting pot is that individual cultures retain their ways, and also become Americans and here is my damn bone to pick: NOBODY EVER SEEMS TO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE BEING MESSICAN AND AMERICAN...ITALIAN AND AMERICAN....CHINESE AND AMERICAN...ETC ETC ETC...UNTIL SOME NATIONALIST BRINGS IT UP! Americans have been strong enough not to succumb to this ******ity that has destroyed great cities and countries like Lebanon (beruit), Bosnia...where people who had been living side by side with each other one day started killing each other out of national pride.

All these Eastern Europeans train in the same places as everyone else did... Go figure.

LOL, don't pretend you even attempted to read his rubbish. That dude's got rants that go on soooo long they make a Phone Book blush. Hell, i don't think I've seen a Phone Book since Captain Asperger's started posting here...
Coincidence? I think not.

As well intentioned as you are, you're one again counterfactual. I demonstrated this extensively earlier in this thread.


You actually can access information showing: which Ethnic groups have produced what champions; and from what population; from what regions; across how many eight divisions; and over how many decades. You can also reference film.

The Irish dominated, then the ***s and Italians. And if you take a look at a P4P list you'll see that spelled out pretty clearly.
If WWII hadn't occurred, or the Communist Bloc had forbidden Professional athletics, Eastern Europeans would have been the natural successors.

And again, you probably wouldn't have heard of most of the Post WWII fighters that you recognize today.

[Rusty Tromboni]

You ducking?

We both know you said some dumbass **** you didn't even think about. It's cool, we all say dumbass **** we didn't put much thought into. Don't be a ***** about it.


****in' WWII immagration That's why from the 1850s-1890s boxing is dominated by Irish Americans is it? WWII uh'comin'? Dumbass.



How about this theory; the only reason America has any challenge at all from any nation on this planet is because of the Americanization of this planet. America is on top, and oh look, all of our best friends do well...hmmm....****in hmmm....USSR, EEs in general, ******, period, ****** bad from medieval periods, through ALL of bare knuckle, and before the USSR banned pros, have you a single name to thump and say but dey had dem a good'en doe? No? Can you English? Okay, how about when Russia is finally a federalist republic? OOOOOHHHHH, no shizzle? The EEs suck a major **** until their nations take a chunk of capitalism and democracy home to them?


Maybe y'all should spend less time trying to figure a dumbass means to cut us down and more time thanking my punk ass for paying my taxes so that this nation can continue to sweep away old world culture and lives for better new world sensibility.



Eat a ****, remember to vote.

Well Spazzo, i'm impressed.

Another post without a bizarre non-sequitor referencing an ancient Greek folk hero.

Whatever dosage of medicine they got you on right now, it's working.

I dunno what the fook you're saying. But that don't matter, i never took you seriously anyway.

[Willie Pep 229]

LOL, don't pretend you even attempted to read his rubbish. That dude's got rants that go on soooo long they make a Phone Book blush. Hell, i don't think I've seen a Phone Book since Captain Asperger's started posting here...
Coincidence? I think not.

As well intentioned as you are, you're one again counterfactual. I demonstrated this extensively earlier in this thread.


You actually can access information showing: which Ethnic groups have produced what champions; and from what population; from what regions; across how many eight divisions; and over how many decades. You can also reference film.

The Irish dominated, then the ***s and Italians. And if you take a look at a P4P list you'll see that spelled out pretty clearly.
If WWII hadn't occurred, or the Communist Bloc had forbidden Professional athletics, Eastern Europeans would have been the natural successors.

And again, you probably wouldn't have heard of most of the Post WWII fighters that you recognize today.

Do you mean as immigrants to the U.S. or as fighting out of their homelands?

I think the immigration aspect would be important.

Today IMHO the dominance we are seeing out of the East comes in part from the great amateur programs the communists originally created.

Had these Eastern bock nations, post-WWII, allowed professional boxing, and not created their elaborate amateur (government financed) programs, and still restricted immigration to the U.S. I think their fighters would have found themselves at a serious disadvantage with American fighters and not done well.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Do you mean as immigrants to the U.S. or as fighting out of their homelands?

I think the immigration aspect would be important.

Today IMHO the dominance we are seeing out of the East comes in part from the great amateur programs the communists originally created.

Had these Eastern bock nations, post-WWII, allowed professional boxing, and not created their elaborate amateur (government financed) programs, and still restricted immigration to the U.S. I think their fighters would have found themselves at a serious disadvantage with American fighters and not done well.

Possibly.

But look how well Bugner did by being... well, Bugner. Big, fit tough. Nothing else. Not even mean. Hell, not even interested half the time.

I do agree, though, that for the best results it has to be one or the other: either they emigrate to America, or the Communist regimes allow the best Amateurs (or those Amateurs most suited for the Pros) to make Boxing a "career" of some sort.

That being said, many of the best fighters in MMA and Kickboxing have come from Europe and are Home-grown talent. That's despite the many advantages America, Brazil and Japan hold over these smaller, poorer, more isolated countries. So, a lot of it really is genetic.

[billeau2]

LOL, don't pretend you even attempted to read his rubbish. That dude's got rants that go on soooo long they make a Phone Book blush. Hell, i don't think I've seen a Phone Book since Captain Asperger's started posting here...
Coincidence? I think not.

As well intentioned as you are, you're one again counterfactual. I demonstrated this extensively earlier in this thread.


You actually can access information showing: which Ethnic groups have produced what champions; and from what population; from what regions; across how many eight divisions; and over how many decades. You can also reference film.

The Irish dominated, then the ***s and Italians. And if you take a look at a P4P list you'll see that spelled out pretty clearly.
If WWII hadn't occurred, or the Communist Bloc had forbidden Professional athletics, Eastern Europeans would have been the natural successors.

And again, you probably wouldn't have heard of most of the Post WWII fighters that you recognize today.

That conclusion is a giant stretch Rusty. Simplier usually is more the reality and the reality is we see socio-economic indicators that point to boxing hegemony. And America has for most of that time, nurtured that process, as opposed to Canada, or Europe for example. Something about the opportunities, the encouragement each group had to work hard with just enough assistance to keep working hard.

You see it everyday. There are no more Puerto Rican grandpa's in the basement of New York walk ups teaching their kids how to box...they have moved to Long Island, or Florida...Now it is Mexican and Central American grand pa's teaching their kids to box in the same walk ups.

He called you out on this and let me say this. Whatever you may think of Marg he does research into aspects of lineage, title and other influences that developed into the sport we have today. Research is not sexy, it is not pretty...quite honestly? the process itself does not usually even take much intelligence. It is a burden and only after the work is done can the intellect be used.

I studied religion and ancient texts in grad school...everyone thought this was like Indiana JOnes...far from it, you look at a character, and even though it is the same character, because of when the text was written, and because the group who wrote it had a take...It is yet another meaning...

The worse though? is Sanskrit. My friend did that and eventually decided on Tibetan Language. You have to be crazy to try to study Sanskrit... Craaaaazy.

mag is a good man. He does the grunt work that matters.

[billeau2]

Possibly.

But look how well Bugner did by being... well, Bugner. Big, fit tough. Nothing else. Not even mean. Hell, not even interested half the time.

I do agree, though, that for the best results it has to be one or the other: either they emigrate to America, or the Communist regimes allow the best Amateurs (or those Amateurs most suited for the Pros) to make Boxing a "career" of some sort.

That being said, many of the best fighters in MMA and Kickboxing have come from Europe and are Home-grown talent. That's despite the many advantages America, Brazil and Japan hold over these smaller, poorer, more isolated countries. So, a lot of it really is genetic.

That is a stretch and a half. That is not nearly enough information to make that determination. Maybe it is because MMA and Kickboxing are not as desirable for the top of the fighting talent pool...So the less talented go into the sport that pays less and is not as popular as boxing.

Maybe there are specific coaches in areas that make great participants. The Dutch are known for great kick boxing, not coincedntally the great fighter John Blume, was instrumental in developing a great program over there.

Russia and the Eastern Euro states also have a very well developed and comprehensive Sambo program. Sambo is Russian Judo and has been developed and used by the Staci, the KGB, AND...also has a biomedical aspect, developed scientifically. To top it all off there is also a sports program in Sambo where many great MMA guys from that area were trained, like Oleg Tarkenof.

This Sambo development is in addition to the boxing program that the soviet state shared with Cuban coaches...So there are aspects to Eastern European talent that can easily be explained. Look up SAMBO. You will find that there are indeed 3 aspects t the development of the art: As a form of Judo, as biomedical physiology and as an art used for combat.

And Brazil? you have a similar thing with Gracie Ju Jutsu. Important thing to remember: While Judo in Japan was stopped cold during the war, this never happened in Brazil. So the art was allowed to evolve all those years uninterupted.

[Rusty Tromboni]

That conclusion is a giant stretch Rusty. Simplier usually is more the reality and the reality is we see socio-economic indicators that point to boxing hegemony. And America has for most of that time, nurtured that process, as opposed to Canada, or Europe for example. Something about the opportunities, the encouragement each group had to work hard with just enough assistance to keep working hard.

You see it everyday. There are no more Puerto Rican grandpa's in the basement of New York walk ups teaching their kids how to box...they have moved to Long Island, or Florida...Now it is Mexican and Central American grand pa's teaching their kids to box in the same walk ups.

He called you out on this and let me say this. Whatever you may think of Marg he does research into aspects of lineage, title and other influences that developed into the sport we have today. Research is not sexy, it is not pretty...quite honestly? the process itself does not usually even take much intelligence. It is a burden and only after the work is done can the intellect be used.

I studied religion and ancient texts in grad school...everyone thought this was like Indiana JOnes...far from it, you look at a character, and even though it is the same character, because of when the text was written, and because the group who wrote it had a take...It is yet another meaning...

The worse though? is Sanskrit. My friend did that and eventually decided on Tibetan Language. You have to be crazy to try to study Sanskrit... Craaaaazy.

mag is a good man. He does the grunt work that matters.

What's a stretch? That an observable trend will continue?

I'm not sure what's more predictable.


It's cool you studied other languages, though. I hope to learn one more before I die. But I really should get English down first.

[Rusty Tromboni]

That is a stretch and a half. That is not nearly enough information to make that determination. Maybe it is because MMA and Kickboxing are not as desirable for the top of the fighting talent pool...So the less talented go into the sport that pays less and is not as popular as boxing.

Maybe there are specific coaches in areas that make great participants. The Dutch are known for great kick boxing, not coincedntally the great fighter John Blume, was instrumental in developing a great program over there.

Russia and the Eastern Euro states also have a very well developed and comprehensive Sambo program. Sambo is Russian Judo and has been developed and used by the Staci, the KGB, AND...also has a biomedical aspect, developed scientifically. To top it all off there is also a sports program in Sambo where many great MMA guys from that area were trained, like Oleg Tarkenof.

This Sambo development is in addition to the boxing program that the soviet state shared with Cuban coaches...So there are aspects to Eastern European talent that can easily be explained. Look up SAMBO. You will find that there are indeed 3 aspects t the development of the art: As a form of Judo, as biomedical physiology and as an art used for combat.

And Brazil? you have a similar thing with Gracie Ju Jutsu. Important thing to remember: While Judo in Japan was stopped cold during the war, this never happened in Brazil. So the art was allowed to evolve all those years uninterupted.

Or ya know, like I said, MMA, along with Wresting and Kickboxing which feed into it, is brutal.

Now that Boxing's basically Tae Kwon Do with your hands, it's easy to see why certain countries in Europe have been producing fabulous fighters despite a myriad of obstacles.

Ya know, simpler is better.