Intimidation. Sonny Liston.

[Tatabanya]

They wven have the same nurse changing their diapers.

Ha, no! Why? They are doing great, I'd say!

[BKM-]

No. In fact I ended my post by writing the exact contrary, namely that Tyson was not able to hide his internal mess. He showed his weaknesses time and again, he spoke and wrote about them at length, and is more loved than Holyfield by most people exactly for those reasons.

Go figure, a former rapist/mugger of elderly people/junkie/alcoholic etc. is more 'loved' by low IQ ignorant people than a man of God who's only flaws have been his incredible lust for beautiful women. It's not exactly comparable if you want to bring up their flaws, pal.

Tyson is just a media whore now who is making a fool of himself in front of the camera, people love that today. Evander shows dignity. So it's irrelevant who's more popular.

However, one thing is being mentally unstable and another "shìtting his pants". Just go back and watch the staredown in Tyson vs Holyfield I. It doesn't look to me that Mike was that scared of Evander.

No, go look at the gif from the rematch that I posted earlier if you want to see the real deal of the staredown. Tyson is scared, that's why he looked for a way out of the fight.

In the first fight Tyson thought he was facing an over the hill fighter who he was gonna run through, as per his yes-men. Sure he wasn't shook up yet at that point.

[billeau2]

[IMG]https://media1.*****.com/media/ktuMIDc3D3Y2s/source.gif[/IMG]

He hid his "fear' pretty well then.

Who wouldn't fear Sonny? Evander fears no man, only God. Evander would go straight at him. You can't scare a man who knows he's going to heaven even if he gets killed in that ring.

Not only would he not fear Sonny but the tables would be turned once Evander finds out Sonny's a bully. It happened with Tyson. Here's Mike shitting his pants in the rematch staredown while Evander is staring right through his facade.

We can discuss Liston versus the bas t a r d maker... But one thing I can tell you... No matter the fear factor, the skill factor, or which way the wind would blow that day: There is no way Hollyfield could push Liston back on his heels like he did Tyson. Liston had mobility...Not even debating the relative skills versus Tyson... Just saying that Holly had a great trainer and he listened to his trainer and capitulized on something Mike hasd as a weakness.

The only man to beat a Tyson worth beating, before Holly was Douglas and Douglas remains the only such man to do so by fighting Tyson head to head. Holly beat Tyson by going into the storm and making sure Tyson was on his heels. Tyson had never experienced someone coming in and throwing him back before, and could not find a way to respond. Liston was way to mobile for that to happen.

[BKM-]

We can discuss Liston versus the bas t a r d maker... But one thing I can tell you... No matter the fear factor, the skill factor, or which way the wind would blow that day: There is no way Hollyfield could push Liston back on his heels like he did Tyson. Liston had mobility...Not even debating the relative skills versus Tyson... Just saying that Holly had a great trainer and he listened to his trainer and capitulized on something Mike hasd as a weakness.

The only man to beat a Tyson worth beating, before Holly was Douglas and Douglas remains the only such man to do so by fighting Tyson head to head. Holly beat Tyson by going into the storm and making sure Tyson was on his heels. Tyson had never experienced someone coming in and throwing him back before, and could not find a way to respond. Liston was way to mobile for that to happen.

Interesting but I'm not sure what you mean with Liston having too much mobility for that, I think what you're getting at(correct me if I'm wrong) is that Liston was a very strong grappler and that Evander could not man handle him and put on the back foot when they fight on the inside. Being that Liston outgrappled a young Foreman he must have been very strong in that department.

I don't think Evander would fight Liston that way. I think he would employ a similar tactic that he used against Foreman. He could box and move very well and if he caught Liston, he would explode with combinations, he would get the better of that at that range since Liston's arms are so much longer and he's honestly slow.

And eventually Evander would find his heart. He would rip it out when he finds that Liston was ultimately a bully.

And I will even go further and say Evander would do the same to a physically prime George Foreman as well.

Evander eats bullies for breakfast.

[billeau2]

Interesting but I'm not sure what you mean with Liston having too much mobility for that, I think what you're getting at(correct me if I'm wrong) is that Liston was a very strong grappler and that Evander could not man handle him and put on the back foot when they fight on the inside. Being that Liston outgrappled a young Foreman he must have been very strong in that department.

I don't think Evander would fight Liston that way. I think he would employ a similar tactic that he used against Foreman. He could box and move very well and if he caught Liston, he would explode with combinations, he would get the better of that at that range since Liston's arms are so much longer.

And eventually Evander would find his heart. He would rip it out when he finds that Liston was ultimately a bully.

And I will even go further and say Evander would do the same to a physically prime George Foreman as well.

Evander eats bullies for breakfast.

The reason Mike got caught that way is because he never had to set up his punches. The style he learned, under Dempsey, does not have a method for going back...vis a vis it is not based on general movements, so much as getting the angle and attacking. Even defensively, One use the head and shoulders to move off the fighting line while coming directly in off the same line.

There was no answer to being pushed back, it was assumed in the Dempsey/Tyson playbook that nobody would come in and push on you. There are of course ways to overcome this, I mean every style has a weakness and weaknesses can be dealt with, part of that might be to grapple back, or sprawl, etc. Liston fought stepping, and not shuffling in with small movements off a line. Liston would step back to make space to use a jab, or some such thing if a fighter tried to push him back off the heals.

I don't want to argue HOW Evander would do in a match, because its a whole other post, but I want to respond to your notions of his character: You are correct that his confidence is outstanding. I believe that this is from his personality but, as you say, his faith is a big factor. There is one more thing about Holly: he is a man who has chosen at times to be very coachable. When he has done so he has succeded. This includes the Tyson fights and the fight with Bowe that he won.

This coachability makes him a very special fighter. Kind of like Tunney who could discipline himself to fight a certain way to win. Evander has that ability when he chose to use it.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Go figure, a former rapist/mugger of elderly people/junkie/alcoholic etc. is more 'loved' by low IQ ignorant people than a man of God who's only flaws have been his incredible lust for beautiful women. It's not exactly comparable if you want to bring up their flaws, pal.

Tyson is just a media whore now who is making a fool of himself in front of the camera, people love that today. Evander shows dignity. So it's irrelevant who's more popular.



No, go look at the gif from the rematch that I posted earlier if you want to see the real deal of the staredown. Tyson is scared, that's why he looked for a way out of the fight.

In the first fight Tyson thought he was facing an over the hill fighter who he was gonna run through, as per his yes-men. Sure he wasn't shook up yet at that point.

True.

But that's reflective of those whom Boxing has come to appeal to.

[Rusty Tromboni]

We can discuss Liston versus the bas t a r d maker... But one thing I can tell you... No matter the fear factor, the skill factor, or which way the wind would blow that day: There is no way Hollyfield could push Liston back on his heels like he did Tyson. Liston had mobility...Not even debating the relative skills versus Tyson... Just saying that Holly had a great trainer and he listened to his trainer and capitulized on something Mike hasd as a weakness.

The only man to beat a Tyson worth beating, before Holly was Douglas and Douglas remains the only such man to do so by fighting Tyson head to head. Holly beat Tyson by going into the storm and making sure Tyson was on his heels. Tyson had never experienced someone coming in and throwing him back before, and could not find a way to respond. Liston was way to mobile for that to happen.

So Cleveland Williams can do it, and some journeymen can brake his jaw/stop him. Butb the bigger and better Holyfield cannot back him up?

Who else can't Holyfield back up? Ray Robinson had some fast feet... and i'm pretty sure you'll tell me he was MUCH BIGGER than Holyfield.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Holyfield didn't have Liston's one-punch power or magnificent jab, but he demonstrated more offensive ability in only the Lewis Rematch than Liston had in his ENTIRE career.

[QueensburyRules]

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He hid his "fear' pretty well then.

Who wouldn't fear Sonny? Evander fears no man, only God. Evander would go straight at him. You can't scare a man who knows he's going to heaven even if he gets killed in that ring.

Not only would he not fear Sonny but the tables would be turned once Evander finds out Sonny's a bully. It happened with Tyson. Here's Mike shitting his pants in the rematch staredown while Evander is staring right through his facade.

- -U in yer BigBoy trainers back then?

[Tatabanya]

Go figure, a former rapist/mugger of elderly people/junkie/alcoholic etc. is more 'loved' by low IQ ignorant people than a man of God who's only flaws have been his incredible lust for beautiful women. It's not exactly comparable if you want to bring up their flaws, pal.

Tyson is just a media whore now who is making a fool of himself in front of the camera, people love that today. Evander shows dignity. So it's irrelevant who's more popular.

No, go look at the gif from the rematch that I posted earlier if you want to see the real deal of the staredown. Tyson is scared, that's why he looked for a way out of the fight.

In the first fight Tyson thought he was facing an over the hill fighter who he was gonna run through, as per his yes-men. Sure he wasn't shook up yet at that point.

You do make interesting points, but I'm sure you're basing your hate for Tyson upon religious grounds more than anything else.

Granted, Tyson had his flaws as both fighter and man, but every human being on the earth is flawed, including your "man of God" (who, speaking of dignity, lent himself to the Benny Hinn "touch-and-fall" healing farce, which was pitiful to watch independently from one's belief).

Simply put, Holyfield was mentally stronger than Tyson in both their fights. All the rest is merely personal belief, which counts as nothing in the overall picture. Most people, for example, keep talking about Tyson "looking for a way out" through the bite. But if you watch the third round with objectiveness, it was a hard-fought round, where Tyson hit Holyfield with great shots, to which Evander replied with other shots, plus lots of grappling to suffocate Tyson's attacks. So, that was a raging outburst, not a "way out" for me; he could have won that fight had he not snapped. Opinions, as I said.

Ultimately, if you believe that getting beaten up until you're in your half-age while in constant denial of your deterioration is better than using your extra-boxing skills to get a second chance at fame and money, then I don't know what to say. Just imagine the "dignified" Holyfield replacing Tyson in a one-man show: it would be one hour and a half of incomprehensible mumbling. Too bad that when it was Holyfield's turn as a media whore (after the bite fight, press and public alike just sanctified him as boxing's savior against the evil) he did not capitalize.

Oh, and Sonny Liston, too, participated in TV movies. Was he a media whore as well?