Intimidation. Sonny Liston.

[billeau2]

Cus D'Amato had answers to getting pushed back.

Kevin Rooney shows a brief snippet of some of that methodology here, up to the 8:08 minute mark:

Thats interesting. You notice how Rooney is getting him to advance the line by head and shoulders movements. Before that he is teaching how to pivot. Apologies in advance, as I am speaking as a martial artist here and may mischaracterize something. But at the level of fight movement it seems that the pivot and the head and shoulders movement is there to preserve the line...So that you can move off a clinch, or keep moving as shots are fired.

These are legit. I mention them in a post to BK. They seem to me to make up the style used by Dempsey and Tyson. It is still a weakness because in all cases you need that forward momentum. Whether you pivot off of it, or close the gap to attack... If a trainer is clever enough to look at the space and not the hands, it becomes apparent that the best place to shut down the movement is to do something aggressive, related to where the attacker's body needs to be, to stop the forward movement. If you and I are completing a walking step and we are both set to land our foot in the same place, if one of us puts our foot there first, it will make the other fall hard if the timing is right.

As I said before, this is counter inuitive: Most of us would rather put our foot down next to the person we want to stop, square up and maybe kick him in the leg hard! lol. When all we have to do is be in that space first, to prevent him from advancing.

To get somewhat technical here: When we move parts of the body in sequence, like the head and shoulders for example, we are still fighting off the same basic line. The shut down happens when an opponent can realize this and insert themselves right into the center of the person coming forwards...literally avoiding the counter off the head movement by inserting oneself where the puncher would have to move next.

A nice cross example of this is how Aikido originally functioned, when it was AikiJutsu, compared to what people do now, which is not the real art. In AikiJutsu it is a sword art (that does not use a sword, go figuree lol) and to stop a person's attack you enter right into his circle, crashing into his center of balance...only then do you take him with technique, a throw, a lock, a strike, etc. People in Aikido try to blend by taking the force of an attack launched...This will not work because the person is not really unbalanced, compromised. If you thow a hard punch at my face, and I attempt to grab it as I circle with you, I have done nothing to your balance. If on the other hand, as your punch comes, I step into you, literally trying to be in the same space you occupy, you will not hold your position and oyur punch will have no power to speak of.

[Rusty Tromboni]

That tubby Qawi was pretty badass, man.

I agreee. I think he's one of the most underrated fighters in history.

I am pretty sure he's the first fighter i met personally. My grandfather loved boxing and would take us to events around Philly and down the shore, when my mother and aunts would let him.

Anyway, Holyfield, like Lewis, 2anted no part of a young Tyson. Holyfield obviously wanted him when the payday was right. But he was 4 years older than mike and hanging out in the Cruiserweight Division to hold out fighting Mike any sooner than he had to.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Thats interesting. You notice how Rooney is getting him to advance the line by head and shoulders movements. Before that he is teaching how to pivot. Apologies in advance, as I am speaking as a martial artist here and may mischaracterize something. But at the level of fight movement it seems that the pivot and the head and shoulders movement is there to preserve the line...So that you can move off a clinch, or keep moving as shots are fired.

These are legit. I mention them in a post to BK. They seem to me to make up the style used by Dempsey and Tyson. It is still a weakness because in all cases you need that forward momentum. Whether you pivot off of it, or close the gap to attack... If a trainer is clever enough to look at the space and not the hands, it becomes apparent that the best place to shut down the movement is to do something aggressive, related to where the attacker's body needs to be, to stop the forward movement. If you and I are completing a walking step and we are both set to land our foot in the same place, if one of us puts our foot there first, it will make the other fall hard if the timing is right.

As I said before, this is counter inuitive: Most of us would rather put our foot down next to the person we want to stop, square up and maybe kick him in the leg hard! lol. When all we have to do is be in that space first, to prevent him from advancing.

To get somewhat technical here: When we move parts of the body in sequence, like the head and shoulders for example, we are still fighting off the same basic line. The shut down happens when an opponent can realize this and insert themselves right into the center of the person coming forwards...literally avoiding the counter off the head movement by inserting oneself where the puncher would have to move next.

A nice cross example of this is how Aikido originally functioned, when it was AikiJutsu, compared to what people do now, which is not the real art. In AikiJutsu it is a sword art (that does not use a sword, go figuree lol) and to stop a person's attack you enter right into his circle, crashing into his center of balance...only then do you take him with technique, a throw, a lock, a strike, etc. People in Aikido try to blend by taking the force of an attack launched...This will not work because the person is not really unbalanced, compromised. If you thow a hard punch at my face, and I attempt to grab it as I circle with you, I have done nothing to your balance. If on the other hand, as your punch comes, I step into you, literally trying to be in the same space you occupy, you will not hold your position and oyur punch will have no power to speak of.

You're forgetting that Tysom never reached his prime, while Holy was a finished product. That being said, for all the decades he fought, for as complete a fighter he was, no one ever feared Holyfield like they feared a Mike Tyson who wasn't even old enough to legally drink beer.

Had Gus lived, you best believe they would've taught mike how to fight on the inside, and off the backfoot. And how to pace himself better.

Holyfield, conversely, HAD to develop that skill if he wanted to fight the big boys. He could fight inside, but even then that was his life line against a faded Tyson. Like you said elsewhere, Tyson had lost his desire to fight at that point. Holyfield was finally able to face his boogeyman.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Cus D'Amato had answers to getting pushed back.

Kevin Rooney shows a brief snippet of some of that methodology here, up to the 8:08 minute mark:

Usually you're a r3turd. But this is a good post.

Tyson was like 24 when his career came to a halt. It's ridiculous to think he was a finished product with nothing more to learn.

Besides, most his skills atrophied after Tokyo.

[ShoulderRoll]

Thats interesting. You notice how Rooney is getting him to advance the line by head and shoulders movements. Before that he is teaching how to pivot. Apologies in advance, as I am speaking as a martial artist here and may mischaracterize something. But at the level of fight movement it seems that the pivot and the head and shoulders movement is there to preserve the line...So that you can move off a clinch, or keep moving as shots are fired.

These are legit. I mention them in a post to BK. They seem to me to make up the style used by Dempsey and Tyson. It is still a weakness because in all cases you need that forward momentum. Whether you pivot off of it, or close the gap to attack... If a trainer is clever enough to look at the space and not the hands, it becomes apparent that the best place to shut down the movement is to do something aggressive, related to where the attacker's body needs to be, to stop the forward movement. If you and I are completing a walking step and we are both set to land our foot in the same place, if one of us puts our foot there first, it will make the other fall hard if the timing is right.

As I said before, this is counter inuitive: Most of us would rather put our foot down next to the person we want to stop, square up and maybe kick him in the leg hard! lol. When all we have to do is be in that space first, to prevent him from advancing.

To get somewhat technical here: When we move parts of the body in sequence, like the head and shoulders for example, we are still fighting off the same basic line. The shut down happens when an opponent can realize this and insert themselves right into the center of the person coming forwards...literally avoiding the counter off the head movement by inserting oneself where the puncher would have to move next.

A nice cross example of this is how Aikido originally functioned, when it was AikiJutsu, compared to what people do now, which is not the real art. In AikiJutsu it is a sword art (that does not use a sword, go figuree lol) and to stop a person's attack you enter right into his circle, crashing into his center of balance...only then do you take him with technique, a throw, a lock, a strike, etc. People in Aikido try to blend by taking the force of an attack launched...This will not work because the person is not really unbalanced, compromised. If you thow a hard punch at my face, and I attempt to grab it as I circle with you, I have done nothing to your balance. If on the other hand, as your punch comes, I step into you, literally trying to be in the same space you occupy, you will not hold your position and oyur punch will have no power to speak of.

Don't focus too much on the advancing the line by slipping and weaving.

I embedded the video to start at a specific point, where Rooney is applying forward pressure and pushing in on the fighter. Just to show that the D'Amato style does have a response to that.

Which is not so much a pivot but a "twist" in Peekaboo parlance.* Which would then be followed by a "spring" to completely get around the forward pressing Rooney.


*Note: Cus hated the term Peekaboo. He referred to the style he taught as Tight Defense.

[Rusty Tromboni]

My first thought was that you had not read the post. I actually wrote a good bit from that premise...I guess I am prone to denial... I cannot imagine you are that daft... Your not really that ****** and I cannot see how you could post this nonsense otherwise unless you just didn't read what I wrote.

Do I really have to explain this to you? First off when Liston was beat he was not backed up on his his heels. Not anything to do with how good, or bad, Liston was RIGHT? "different discussion." Backing someone up is not really what this is about, its about weight placement, triangulation, timing... a coach telling you where to be, when. Its also not really about size, you should know that from wrestling: If you can sprawl me you can stop me from taking your legs right? If I manage to get into that space before you can sprawl...its a different story yes?

Its physics. Liston moved around, he was taught to stutter step punch, and punch on the half step occasionally. He could do this going backwards as well. You could not bully in and push him back on his heels to stop his attack, you could do other things.

Yeah, and maybe Liston allowed Williams to have his way early, so that he'd blow his wad early. If that was the plan, it worked beautifully.

But Holyfield was more skilled and experienced than anyone Liston ever faced. If he found a way to back up the bigger and more offensively overwhelming Tyson, he'd find a way to get inside on Liston.

Holyfield lacked liston's power. And he didn't have the mobility of a Clay. But he is one of the best inside fighters in Heavyweight history. And the most experienced and tested after Ali.

[Tatabanya]

The worst version of Tyson fought the better version of Field

I edited your sentence a bit, but THIS is what most people keep (willingly) missing when comparing the two.

The best version of Tyson - a mix of speed, accuracy and pressure - would have no problem whatsoever with Holyfield, or Lewis for that matter.

The post-Douglas version of Tyson mostly relied on sheer power. There was no more speed, no more precision, no more effective pressure. If power failed, Tyson lost. Simple as that, beyond all of those "quitter" bullshėt. Tyson always took his beatings like a man, even when his skills had deteriorated beyond belief. The Holyfield fights were wars, like it or not. He kept throwing punches even when he was completely drugged against Lewis, a fight he had to accept in order to pay his debts, well conscious that his time was over. And Lewis still brags about that "win" against Tyson's corpse!

And I won't even get started about mental focus, which was completely lost in Tyson after the jail stint.

[BKM-]

I edited your sentence a bit, but THIS is what most people keep (willingly) missing when comparing the two.

The best version of Tyson - a mix of speed, accuracy and pressure - would have no problem whatsoever with Holyfield, or Lewis for that matter.

The post-Douglas version of Tyson mostly relied on sheer power. There was no more speed, no more precision, no more effective pressure. If power failed, Tyson lost. Simple as that, beyond all of those "quitter" bullshėt. Tyson always took his beatings like a man, even when his skills had deteriorated beyond belief. The Holyfield fights were wars, like it or not. He kept throwing punches even when he was completely drugged against Lewis, a fight he had to accept in order to pay his debts, well conscious that his time was over. And Lewis still brags about that "win" against Tyson's corpse!

And I won't even get started about mental focus, which was completely lost in Tyson after the jail stint.

I let it be earlier when you mentioned your age. But this post shows me something unfortunate. Those young Tyson fanboys I was talking about, you're showing that most of them never grow up. I was like them when I started posting on this site in my mid teens and I grew out of it, but most seem to be trapped in a child-like mindset.

At 56 years old you're still talking like them, the same old claims about mythical "prime Tyson" and that he would have "no problem whatsoever" against Lewis and Holyfield, a statement that can't even be called a joke. The overwhelming majority of boxing experts would pick Lewis and Holyfield to beat Tyson at any point in his overrated career, and most of them don't rank Tyson in the top 10 HW's either.

[BKM-]

Don't focus too much on the advancing the line by slipping and weaving.

I embedded the video to start at a specific point, where Rooney is applying forward pressure and pushing in on the fighter. Just to show that the D'Amato style does have a response to that.

Which is not so much a pivot but a "twist" in Peekaboo parlance.* Which would then be followed by a "spring" to completely get around the forward pressing Rooney.


*Note: Cus hated the term Peekaboo. He referred to the style he taught as Tight Defense.

That's a flashy move but not sustainabe, just like his flashy head movement and upperbody movements that would disappear before the middle of the fight if the opponent lasted long enough.

Tyson couldn't sustain that in a real fight with his 220pounds of muscle on a 5'10 frame, and I doubt it would be of use at all. I would imagine that you would know how difficult it is to get out of a good boxer-grappler's clinch.

The only way to deal with it is to be a strong grappler yourself but unfortunately Tyson is one of the physically weakest HW's of all time in the clinch, every single opponent, bum or not, pushed him back in the clinch. Liston, Foreman, Holyfield, Lewis etc. would all man handle him. Cus really didn't have a real answer. His answer was to duck the opponent. This is historically proven.

[ShoulderRoll]

That's a flashy move but not sustainabe, just like his flashy head movement and upperbody movements that would disappear before the middle of the fight if the opponent lasted long enough.

Tyson couldn't sustain that in a real fight with his 220pounds of muscle on a 5'10 frame, and I doubt it would be of use at all. I would imagine that you would know how difficult it is to get out of a good boxer-grappler's clinch.

The only way to deal with it is to be a strong grappler yourself but unfortunately Tyson is one of the physically weakest HW's of all time in the clinch, every single opponent, bum or not, pushed him back in the clinch. Liston, Foreman, Holyfield, Lewis etc. would all man handle him. Cus really didn't have a real answer. His answer was to duck the opponent. This is historically proven.

Of course it's sustainable. You just have to be in great shape.

That is one of the requirements of the Tight Defense style.