Why is there no fight footage of Harry Greb?

[klompton]

- -Keep in mind that when Dempsey remarried and moved to Hollywood, he was making more $$$ than he ever made under Kearns and Rickard.

Moreover he dragged Big Bill Tate with him to spar with as various Harry Wills fights were made before collapsing and took some stick for having a Black man living with him. Bill was upgraded to Chauffeur and got to drive some of the finest classics of the day any auto enthusiast would salivate over. Win/win!

The only fights Dempsey ever agreed to against Wills were shams that were arranged with Dempsey's blessing to give the appearance that he was open to fighting Wills when that was as far from the truth as possible. They didnt simply fall through, they were never intended to take place at all.

Boxing was never seen as a legit sport like baseball and horse racing, hence the longtime difficulty in making any legit match that didn't have ND rules in place.

This is nonsense. In this era boxing was as big as baseball. No other sport, including baseball, could draw the number of fans that boxing did or the ticket prices. To say it wasnt seen as legit is ridiculous. The ND rules had nothing to do with boxing being seen as illigitimate. They were an attempt to keep ******** out of the sport and keep it honest. ND matches were just as legitimate as decision matches and anyone who says otherwise hasnt done much research into this era. All one has to do is go look at the numerous photos of cities all over the country where people are mobbed up waiting for their local newspaper office to post wire reports of the big fights. No other sport could generate that kind of interest. Its no coincidence that boxing has more film coverage than any other sport in history by far. Its no coincidence that boxing boasted the first sports radio broadcasts and that boxing boasted the first professional sporting event ever televised.

Allegedly Greb sparred in a Dempsey training camp. Any truth to that? Any possible animosity?

Greb was in two of Dempsey's training camps. At Van Kelton Stadium in NY in July 1920 and at Benton Harbor MI in Sept 1920. He gave Dempsey ten kinds of hell in both camps. Greb had no animosity toward Dempsey other than to say he could beat him. Dempsey wanted no part of a fight with Greb or anyone else he wasnt sure he could beat.

[The Old LefHook]

Merely a random anomaly and Greb's career's exact dates, but also his fights' exact locations, I assume. Sometimes it was too far to drive, etc., etc. for those few technicians with the means of filming a prize fight, and other simple, mundane reasons.

Look at this now. We even have Walker, but where is Harry? By averages, someone had to just miss the cutoff and then have historical bad luck on top of that, for there to be no action footage of a boxer of Harry's public stature.

It could have been any of our boxing heroes. What if it had been Walker instead? We would be awfully curious about Mickey now, wouldn't we? Walker was a little better historically placed, as in a little younger, and his career was not terminated early.

We now know how Langford moved when he fought. But do we know how John L. Sullivan sounded when he spoke?

[QueensburyRules]

The only fights Dempsey ever agreed to against Wills were shams that were arranged with Dempsey's blessing to give the appearance that he was open to fighting Wills when that was as far from the truth as possible. They didnt simply fall through, they were never intended to take place at all.



This is nonsense. In this era boxing was as big as baseball. No other sport, including baseball, could draw the number of fans that boxing did or the ticket prices. To say it wasnt seen as legit is ridiculous. The ND rules had nothing to do with boxing being seen as illigitimate. They were an attempt to keep ******** out of the sport and keep it honest. ND matches were just as legitimate as decision matches and anyone who says otherwise hasnt done much research into this era. All one has to do is go look at the numerous photos of cities all over the country where people are mobbed up waiting for their local newspaper office to post wire reports of the big fights. No other sport could generate that kind of interest. Its no coincidence that boxing has more film coverage than any other sport in history by far. Its no coincidence that boxing boasted the first sports radio broadcasts and that boxing boasted the first professional sporting event ever televised.



Greb was in two of Dempsey's training camps. At Van Kelton Stadium in NY in July 1920 and at Benton Harbor MI in Sept 1920. He gave Dempsey ten kinds of hell in both camps. Greb had no animosity toward Dempsey other than to say he could beat him. Dempsey wanted no part of a fight with Greb or anyone else he wasnt sure he could beat.

- -Boxing was still illegal in many states and territories. Baseball and horse racing were not and never were to my knowledge.

Nobody ever denied the popularity of boxing, but publicly it's beginnings more than not had to be surreptitious in nature.

Wills was paid his $50k guarantee for their first fight that he wisely invested in an apartment complex that saw him thru the depression whereas both Dempsey and Benny Leonard who had stock investments had to return to boxing.

Wills/Dempsey was the biggest fight of its day, but because literally the politics because of the Jeffries/JJ riots egregious boxing film legislation was passed and no politician would push for Dempsey/Wills.

Do you deny Edison's first attempt at a full feature filming of Corbett/Fitz in 1895 Dallas was Quashed by the Texas legislature?

And that the 1896 Filming attempt in 1896 of Maher/Fitz created havoc in Mexico and Texas and had to be done surreptitiously on a noman spit island in the Rio Grande outside of Langtry?

Baseball and horse racing never faced such obstacles...only in boxing!

[klompton]

- -Boxing was still illegal in many states and territories. Baseball and horse racing were not and never were to my knowledge.

Nobody ever denied the popularity of boxing, but publicly it's beginnings more than not had to be surreptitious in nature.

This is merely semantics. You will find that while "boxing" was illegal in many states at this time it was still conducted and sanctioned in those states. And again, it wasnt because the sport itself was seen as illegitimate it was because progressives believed it drew unsavory elements and had an unsavory influence.

Wills was paid his $50k guarantee for their first fight that he wisely invested in an apartment complex that saw him thru the depression whereas both Dempsey and Benny Leonard who had stock investments had to return to boxing.

You are conflating several instances into one. The supposed $50,000 you mention was allegedly paid in late 1925. This wasnt the first time they were matched but the last. Wills denied ever being paid that money despite what the newspapers said. Regardless, he was already a property owner in NY by that time. Dempsey's business manager himself said the money was paid by Dempsey through his friend, promoter Floyd Fitzsimmons who had been enlisted to assist Dempsey get the NY State Athletic Commission off his back. The Commission had notified Dempsey in the summer of 1925 that if he did not honor Wills' challenge and sign to fight him he would be stripped. Doc Kearns, who was now estranged with Dempsey but still his manager of record signed Dempsey to fight Wills believing Dempsey would lose, as a form of revenge. Dempsey repudiated the contract but realized that being stripped of the title would hurt his ability to earn needed a way to keep the gravy train rolling. He enlisted his close friend Floyd Fitzsimmons who had promoted the Dempsey-Miske fight to begin negotiations for a promotion between Dempsey and Wills. The terms of the contract were set in such a way that they could not be met which would mean that Dempsey could walk away unscathed and say that he was trying his best to make the fight even though he was doing nothing of the sort. It was a near complete repeat of the situation in 1922 whereby Dempsey was forced to start negotiations with Wills by the NYSAC and had his buddy Tex Rickard draw up a "contract" which both signed. Problem was that the contract gave no date for the fight, no venue, nothing at all. It was merely a promise that if a promoter the parties deemed acceptable came up with an offer both parties deemed acceptable then the fight would be made. Of course this left open the option for Dempsey to simply claim every promoter and offer that came out of the woodwork was unacceptable, which he did.

Wills/Dempsey was the biggest fight of its day, but because literally the politics because of the Jeffries/JJ riots egregious boxing film legislation was passed and no politician would push for Dempsey/Wills.

Apples and oranges. This is the popular story that Dempsey put forth but its simply not true and ignores the fact that several countries outside of the United States wanted to host the bout as well. The only common denominator in Dempsey not fighting Wills is Dempsey. Furthermore, for such a supposedly racially charged topic Wills routinely came out FAR on top in newspaper and magazine polls as Dempseys top challenger in that era. How many poor blacks do you suppose were buying newspapers and magazines in that era? Thats a LOT of white people who supported Wills efforts to get a title shot. The myth that racism kept Wills from a title shot is just that. What actually kept him from a title shot was that he was far more dangerous than guys like Miske, Brennan, Carpentier, Gibbons, and Firpo.

Do you deny Edison's first attempt at a full feature filming of Corbett/Fitz in 1895 Dallas was Quashed by the Texas legislature?


And that the 1896 Filming attempt in 1896 of Maher/Fitz created havoc in Mexico and Texas and had to be done surreptitiously on a noman spit island in the Rio Grande outside of Langtry?

Baseball and horse racing never faced such obstacles...only in boxing!

No but you are talking about an era literally three decades earlier. Furthermore, comparing boxing and horse racing or baseball is silly. The number of race tracks in the united states at any time in its history was/is miniscule compared to the number of fight clubs or venues which housed boxing. Likewise baseball. Furthermore, both baseball and horseracing have gone through reform movements in their history. ******** touched and effected all three sports differently but no less consequentially. It was you who said boxing was seen as illegitimate. Thats a blanket statement that simply doesnt hold water. Go back and compare the statistics of boxing matches held when you think it was supposedly illegal or illegitimate compared to professional horse races or baseball. I guarantee it wont even be close. In fact if you go back and look at the revenue brought to the State of New York, where both baseball and horse racing were huge, you will see that boxing brought in FAR more revenue in fees and taxes than either of those other two sports. But back to the original point you were trying to make: That because boxing was supposedly illegal and hence a match with Wills was problematic in the making because they couldnt find anywhere where there werent ND rules. This is, again, nonsense. You are aware, I hope, That Dempsey-Carpentier and Dempsey-Miske were held under ND rules. Dempsey had five successful title defenses in seven years and two of those were under ND rules. He had no problem defending his title under ND rules when the opponent was a no hoper.

[New England]

There's some good information and speculation about the fate of Greb films on other classic boxing forums by people far more knowledgable than me.

One poster here speculated that Greb films were "recorded over". Film cannot be recorded over. 8mm, and Super 8, was developed in the early thirties. Greb's fights would've likely been captured on 35mm, or maybe 16mm film (from what I can surmise via a wikipedia article on film stocks).

I suspect that if a Greb film ever turns up it will have been found uncatalogued in a university library somewhere, or more likely in some non-boxing fan's "junk" that had been passed on to him/her by a deceased relative. At this point, if a Greb film is out there, it belongs to someone who doesn't have a clue what they possess. If they've screened it at all they'd likely have looked at it as some insignificant old time boxing match.

hopefully they're curious little beavers like the rest of us in the history section. or they see a full stadium and wonder what all the hubub is about.


i think our best bet is that some old codger is sitting on footage and knows how to store film. i'm no expert, but you've got to figure that a stockpile of unknown greb footage that's not stored properly is on borrowed time.

[billeau2]

Yes I am he. Thank you for the kind words. I hope you enjoy it.



Dempsey wouldnt go anywhere near Greb. It was really a no win situation for him. On the face of it most people would have assumed that Dempsey would have beaten Greb easily. Thus the expectation for him to perform was very high. However, he knew how tough, fast, and tricky Greb was. He wasnt getting Greb out of there with some one round knockout. Win or lose he was going to look bad and if he didnt stop Greb he would be so far behind on points that if the fight was held in a state that allowed decisions he would be in trouble. If he knocks Greb out the fans would have just said "well, thats what we expected." If it goes to a decision and he wins then hes underperformed. Any other result is disastrous for him. So it was easier to avoid Greb than get in the ring with him. Greb should have gotten a shot. He deserved it and it would have drawn well enough to make it worth Dempsey's while but Dempsey and the people who were handling him knew well enough not to go there. He had half a dozen bonafide offers to fight Greb from 1918 to 1925 and every single time it was Dempsey or his management who killed the deal.



He's certainly got a solid argument for being the greatest. Ive always said when you are mentioned in that company it doesnt really matter if you are THE best. There are really, in my opinion, only a handful of fighters in history who could really be considered possibly the greatest fighting man of all time and hes one of them without a doubt. To be in that discussion, out of the thousands of fighters in history, it doesnt get better than that.

It is quite evident to me, especially after hearing an expert on Greb, that the lack of film has had a tremendous impact on how Greb is received, even by those who are knowedgable fans of boxing. It is a shame for sure... There has also been a lot of back and fourth in this section regarding the perceived motivations of Dempsey...again IMO there is tremendous misunderstanding regarding these alleged motivations regarding opponents. Dempsey was perhaps the first fighter to come up and attain superstar status.

Sullivan showed that fighters could draw a gate based on their appeal as the heavyweight champ in the new country, but sports as an institution blew up...We got the Babe, Dempsey, etc. So of course Dempsey had to think things through. But what gets me is when people talk about guys like Wills...a good fighter, but not really someone Dempsey would fear imo. People often make Dempsey out to be a ducker by hyperbole... Wills becomes this great, lightening fast, fighter lol!

I will end this post with a true story that should give people pause to understand how great Greb was. My first Karate teacher, who I trained with for 15 years, or so, was an incredible fighter. He never flinched it seemed to me... Well one day he told me that he lost his right eye. Like Greb he fought with one eye... It is remarkable that someone could do such a thing! anyone who doubts Greb's ability should try it some time...with an eye patch perhaps?

[klompton]

It is quite evident to me, especially after hearing an expert on Greb, that the lack of film has had a tremendous impact on how Greb is received, even by those who are knowedgable fans of boxing. It is a shame for sure... There has also been a lot of back and fourth in this section regarding the perceived motivations of Dempsey...again IMO there is tremendous misunderstanding regarding these alleged motivations regarding opponents. Dempsey was perhaps the first fighter to come up and attain superstar status.

Sullivan showed that fighters could draw a gate based on their appeal as the heavyweight champ in the new country, but sports as an institution blew up...We got the Babe, Dempsey, etc. So of course Dempsey had to think things through. But what gets me is when people talk about guys like Wills...a good fighter, but not really someone Dempsey would fear imo. People often make Dempsey out to be a ducker by hyperbole... Wills becomes this great, lightening fast, fighter lol!

I will end this post with a true story that should give people pause to understand how great Greb was. My first Karate teacher, who I trained with for 15 years, or so, was an incredible fighter. He never flinched it seemed to me... Well one day he told me that he lost his right eye. Like Greb he fought with one eye... It is remarkable that someone could do such a thing! anyone who doubts Greb's ability should try it some time...with an eye patch perhaps?

Dont paint my quote as misinformation. If anyone is misinformed its you. Refute anything I said with actual facts. You cant. Its a plain and simple fact that Jack Dempsey actively avoided Wills. Period. You can pretend his motivations were this or that but when he states he'd meet the winner of Fulton-Wills and then signs to fight the ill, comebacking Billy Miske the day after Wills knocks out Fulton and crushes three of his ribs in the process dont tell me he was fighting the best he could. When he then fights Bill Brennan, who had failed to beat Greb or Miske in six consecutive fights the previous year and had faced no threatening competition since then and who also had, not coincidentally, been stopped by Dempsey two years earlier, it was a step back not forward. Does anyone doubt that the six foot two inch 220lb Wills wouldnt have crushed the 168lb overrated Carpentier? After Carpentier was the aforementioned fake contract used to keep Dempsey from being stripped (the first of two times they used that ruse). Then he sits out for two years and faced Tommy Gibbons. Why? There were two eliminations held in 1922 for Dempsey: The first was Harry Wills-Kid Norfolk. Wills knocked Norfolk out in 2 rounds. Norfolk was Brennan's chief sparring partner for Dempsey and the press said he handled Brennan easier than Dempsey (who struggled mightily with Brennan). They advised Dempsey to steer clear of Norfolk. Wills smashed him easily. Like a bug. The other elimination was Greb-Gibbons. Greb dominated Gibbons and beat him easily. The press were unanimous that Greb had exposed Gibbons as poor challenger for Dempsey. So of the top two contenders, one white and one black. Did Dempsey choose either? No. So Tommy Gibbons got his title shot by losing his elimination bout. Sound like a champion looking for the toughest fights? Next Dempsey fought Firpo. Firpo was very vocal about the fact that he didnt think he was ready for Dempsey. That he wanted more time. He stated that Wills should get first shot. Understanding that the opportunity and such a payday may never come again he took the shot. He went life and death with Dempsey dropping him three times, once knocking him out of the ring, before being stopped in the second. Dempsey didnt fight again for three years and never again defended his title successfully. Sorry, but Dempsey wasnt the fearless mankiller he is painted as his legend. He was a media hyped, protected fighter who people built a myth around and realized that the revenue he generated was so great that he had to be kept from people who would threaten that. Sorry but thats not sports. Thats professional wrestling. Go back and look at his run up to the title and see how the various fights that were suspected to be fixed at the time of his in order to build his reputation. Go back and examine his opponents and you will see he wasnt that impressive. He wasnt going anywhere near Wills and Kearns, who had briefly managed Wills years earlier and knew exactly what he was capable of wasnt going to let him either. Had they really been that confident that Dempsey would defeat Wills they would have signed on the dotted line, knocked him out quick and easy like his deluded fans think he would have, and in one fell swoop they would have gained the biggest payday of Dempsey's career by far, put to bed the myth of Wills, and upheld the supposed honor of the white race in the supposed racist America of the day. Nobody would have ever said another word about it. But they knew that beating Wills wasnt a given and they also knew better than you or I that Wills had massive support among both whites and blacks and that racism was just one excuse to pluck from the multitude they constantly came up with for not defending against Dempsey's top challenger.

[ShoulderRoll]

Dont paint my quote as misinformation. If anyone is misinformed its you. Refute anything I said with actual facts. You cant. Its a plain and simple fact that Jack Dempsey actively avoided Wills. Period. You can pretend his motivations were this or that but when he states he'd meet the winner of Fulton-Wills and then signs to fight the ill, comebacking Billy Miske the day after Wills knocks out Fulton and crushes three of his ribs in the process dont tell me he was fighting the best he could. When he then fights Bill Brennan, who had failed to beat Greb or Miske in six consecutive fights the previous year and had faced no threatening competition since then and who also had, not coincidentally, been stopped by Dempsey two years earlier, it was a step back not forward. Does anyone doubt that the six foot two inch 220lb Wills wouldnt have crushed the 168lb overrated Carpentier? After Carpentier was the aforementioned fake contract used to keep Dempsey from being stripped (the first of two times they used that ruse). Then he sits out for two years and faced Tommy Gibbons. Why? There were two eliminations held in 1922 for Dempsey: The first was Harry Wills-Kid Norfolk. Wills knocked Norfolk out in 2 rounds. Norfolk was Brennan's chief sparring partner for Dempsey and the press said he handled Brennan easier than Dempsey (who struggled mightily with Brennan). They advised Dempsey to steer clear of Norfolk. Wills smashed him easily. Like a bug. The other elimination was Greb-Gibbons. Greb dominated Gibbons and beat him easily. The press were unanimous that Greb had exposed Gibbons as poor challenger for Dempsey. So of the top two contenders, one white and one black. Did Dempsey choose either? No. So Tommy Gibbons got his title shot by losing his elimination bout. Sound like a champion looking for the toughest fights? Next Dempsey fought Firpo. Firpo was very vocal about the fact that he didnt think he was ready for Dempsey. That he wanted more time. He stated that Wills should get first shot. Understanding that the opportunity and such a payday may never come again he took the shot. He went life and death with Dempsey dropping him three times, once knocking him out of the ring, before being stopped in the second. Dempsey didnt fight again for three years and never again defended his title successfully. Sorry, but Dempsey wasnt the fearless mankiller he is painted as his legend. He was a media hyped, protected fighter who people built a myth around and realized that the revenue he generated was so great that he had to be kept from people who would threaten that. Sorry but thats not sports. Thats professional wrestling. Go back and look at his run up to the title and see how the various fights that were suspected to be fixed at the time of his in order to build his reputation. Go back and examine his opponents and you will see he wasnt that impressive. He wasnt going anywhere near Wills and Kearns, who had briefly managed Wills years earlier and knew exactly what he was capable of wasnt going to let him either. Had they really been that confident that Dempsey would defeat Wills they would have signed on the dotted line, knocked him out quick and easy like his deluded fans think he would have, and in one fell swoop they would have gained the biggest payday of Dempsey's career by far, put to bed the myth of Wills, and upheld the supposed honor of the white race in the supposed racist America of the day. Nobody would have ever said another word about it. But they knew that beating Wills wasnt a given and they also knew better than you or I that Wills had massive support among both whites and blacks and that racism was just one excuse to pluck from the multitude they constantly came up with for not defending against Dempsey's top challenger.

What is your take on the abilities of Harry Wills? He looks crude on film and seems to clinch excessively (which in his defense might have been the norm for that era.)

Do you rank him highly as a fighter?

[stealthradon]

To the question of why no footage exists..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lost_films

It happens all the time.

[billeau2]

]Dont paint my quote as misinformation. If anyone is misinformed its you. Refute anything I said with actual facts. You cant[/B]. Its a plain and simple fact that Jack Dempsey actively avoided Wills. Period. You can pretend his motivations were this or that but when he states he'd meet the winner of Fulton-Wills and then signs to fight the ill, comebacking Billy Miske the day after Wills knocks out Fulton and crushes three of his ribs in the process dont tell me he was fighting the best he could. When he then fights Bill Brennan, who had failed to beat Greb or Miske in six consecutive fights the previous year and had faced no threatening competition since then and who also had, not coincidentally, been stopped by Dempsey two years earlier, it was a step back not forward. Does anyone doubt that the six foot two inch 220lb Wills wouldnt have crushed the 168lb overrated Carpentier? After Carpentier was the aforementioned fake contract used to keep Dempsey from being stripped (the first of two times they used that ruse). Then he sits out for two years and faced Tommy Gibbons. Why? There were two eliminations held in 1922 for Dempsey: The first was Harry Wills-Kid Norfolk. Wills knocked Norfolk out in 2 rounds. Norfolk was Brennan's chief sparring partner for Dempsey and the press said he handled Brennan easier than Dempsey (who struggled mightily with Brennan). They advised Dempsey to steer clear of Norfolk. Wills smashed him easily. Like a bug. The other elimination was Greb-Gibbons. Greb dominated Gibbons and beat him easily. The press were unanimous that Greb had exposed Gibbons as poor challenger for Dempsey. So of the top two contenders, one white and one black. Did Dempsey choose either? No. So Tommy Gibbons got his title shot by losing his elimination bout. Sound like a champion looking for the toughest fights? Next Dempsey fought Firpo. Firpo was very vocal about the fact that he didnt think he was ready for Dempsey. That he wanted more time. He stated that Wills should get first shot. Understanding that the opportunity and such a payday may never come again he took the shot. He went life and death with Dempsey dropping him three times, once knocking him out of the ring, before being stopped in the second. Dempsey didnt fight again for three years and never again defended his title successfully. Sorry, but Dempsey wasnt the fearless mankiller he is painted as his legend. He was a media hyped, protected fighter who people built a myth around and realized that the revenue he generated was so great that he had to be kept from people who would threaten that. Sorry but thats not sports. Thats professional wrestling. Go back and look at his run up to the title and see how the various fights that were suspected to be fixed at the time of his in order to build his reputation. Go back and examine his opponents and you will see he wasnt that impressive. He wasnt going anywhere near Wills and Kearns, who had briefly managed Wills years earlier and knew exactly what he was capable of wasnt going to let him either. Had they really been that confident that Dempsey would defeat Wills they would have signed on the dotted line, knocked him out quick and easy like his deluded fans think he would have, and in one fell swoop they would have gained the biggest payday of Dempsey's career by far, put to bed the myth of Wills, and upheld the supposed honor of the white race in the supposed racist America of the day. Nobody would have ever said another word about it. But they knew that beating Wills wasnt a given and they also knew better than you or I that Wills had massive support among both whites and blacks and that racism was just one excuse to pluck from the multitude they constantly came up with for not defending against Dempsey's top challenger.

ummm excuse me? Where did I quote you? I was sharing an opinion about Wills, my opinion, as part of a larger issue of Dempsey allegeldly ducking fighters for various reasons. I was responding to your post, for sure but not to challenge any notions about Dempsey. I really wonder where you got all that from.

Lets unpack this: I didn't know what you "thought" about Wills and dempsey... So i could hardly challenge you. Ill Bold the points

I don't know where you get "misinformed" for one thing if you read my point it is that Wills got blown up as a fighter imo, and would not have been a great threat to Dempsey...That is what is known as an "opinion." At least where I come from...

Again... My comments do not suggest that Dempsey was fighting the best he could...read the post doc.

Wills smashing someone, who troubled Dempsey ahh the old triangle theory...Ok. I can buy it under certain conditions...Yet Wills also lost to many questionable fighters, there were inconsistencies, etc. I will come back to this point later. By the way didn't firpo and Wills draw? the same Firpo who Dempsey beat?

Oh I see a Dempsey hater so that is why you flew into a rage... Well I respectfully disagree doc and I will tell you why: there was a period in boxing when you had men who had been around, some even since JOhnson, all the way up to Tyson...Trainers, fighters, etc...and when they were asked who they thought the greatest heavyweight was, you know as an expert who they sited the most: Dempsey. These men were as much a historical circumstance as not having film of Greb. It just so happened we had some very old guys still sharp, who had seen and even trained some of the best, and they were unanimious in their praise of Jack.
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/jdempsey.html

I take their admonitions over any historian... including you doc. I hate to use the argument that is used by many of the haters, but you never saw Greb fight did you? Tunney who fought Greb and Jack thought they were the two toughest opponents he had ever faced.

I don't pretend to know what Dempsey was dealing with in deciding who to fight when, I never stated that Dempsey always took the best fights, but sorry Wills was not the man killer he was described as either... He was a mecurial fighter who started relatively late with talent to spare. i think Dempsey would a muodered da bum!!!

Peace Doc