Joe Louis Runs the Gauntlet

[Longhaul]

Or your nurse just didn't read the list in order. Any non-casual would notice the direction the gauntlet takes.

Good comeback.

[billeau2]

For me those are the most interesting match-ups. Tunney was far less experienced a Hw than Louis, but he looks custom-built to beat Louis. Not that you can clearly favor either man, but you can make a strong case for both.

Foreman, conversely won't try to out-slick Louis, instead he's gonna try to run him over. Foreman has waaaay more firepower than Schmeling or Galento, but Ron Lyle wasn't half the man that Joe Louis was. Another pick-em


Of all the opponents listed, I think against both these men Joe Louis would need a trilogy to sort things out.

Hard to keep track of the list lol...

Ok I think Tunney by precedent beats him. Tunney imo was better than Conn and won't get careless and had underestimated footwork. Ironicly, Louis also had underestimated footwork lol. Holmes could also win sort of like Schmelling did. Holmes being more athletic and with a more rangy jab could give him fits. Holmes held up well against good punchers. Even when he was older against Tyson he was doing well there for a while, just could not keep it up.

Vitali was buckled against Sanders...I don't think he holds up against Louis' power but...It would not shock me if he did because he is underestimated....what is it with underestimated today!!? third time this post sheesh!

Foreman...No. he would knock louis down perhaps. Louis was a tight deadly puncher, Foreman didn't have the defense...Liston was better and might do it.

Usk is too premature, lets see how he fares. Jones forget it! Jones very quickly tasted the canvas.

I think Louis can have success against Holmes and Vitali, but they're too big for him to a be a favorite. Holmes is a bigger, more proven Tunney; and Vitali as dangerous as Foreman, but more measured and durable.

Byrd, nope... Again, all that mumbo jumbo tricky stuff kind of goes out the window against a guy who throws straight as Louis and as hard. Byrd does have a chin though...but Louis hit at least as hard as Vlad. I have to see who is left....

Ok Jack... Wow hard to say. Dempsey never faced a puncher like Louis that I can think of offhand. But Louis never quite faced a guy like Jack. I actually have no idea who wins that one...I can't even imagine.

Fury. Humm.... Good picks Rusty hard to figure... We could go on precedent and say cunningham tells us something about Fury but I don't really believe that to be. Fury could be a nightmare for Louis because he has mobility, like Holmes and Louis would at the very least need fifteen rounds to fight Holmes or Fury and have a good odd chance of connecting enough to get a KO. Fury would win a 12 rounder on points. 15 rounder Louis catches him like Wilder did.

Thats the best I can do. Sure things Tunney and Holmes would win imo.

[billeau2]

My post got confused and mixed up, sorry guys long day at the office so to speak...

heres the thing about Ali: Ali and JOnes, are examples of guys who did things their own way, often against the grain and had natural physiological gifts that enabled them to develop their own style. So technically speaking Ali is not very good in an orthodox fashion... It is the reason why Frazier caught him going straight back with the left hook that rocked him.

Tyson Fury is technically very very good. He has incredible footwork and knows how to fight actively off the back foot, defensively and as a counter puncher.

It is also true that his leverage is off on his shots, but his best shots are counter punches.

So I think Apples and Rusty both make valid points.

Ali actually liked martial arts and uses something called Tai Sabaki which is upper body movements, angling. It works well for certain martial arts applications. The problem with it is that it often leaves one unaligned so unable to change position rapidly and with the whole body.

[Rusty Tromboni]

It is also true that his leverage is off on his shots, but his best shots are counter punches.

So I think Apples and Rusty both make valid points.

Ali actually liked martial arts and uses something called Tai Sabaki which is upper body movements, angling. It works well for certain martial arts applications. The problem with it is that it often leaves one unaligned so unable to change position rapidly and with the whole body.

the overall analysis is very good. But the last point was especially illuminating. thanks for sharing that!

I know that Stephen Thompson says he has a lot of influence from Ali.

[billeau2]

the overall analysis is very good. But the last point was especially illuminating. thanks for sharing that!

I know that Stephen Thompson says he has a lot of influence from Ali.

There was a time when George Dillman was a legit Martial Artist, the same guy who is peddling nonsense now about "No touch KO's" Ali used to train in camps with Dillman. Also on 86st in New York in the 60's Richard Chung had one of the first dojo's for Tia Kwon Do in the city. Ali was a friend and guest...of course what people called Tai Kwon Do back then does not resemble the strip mall dojo with kids classes galour! Those guys had to be able to at least kick hard and fast against someone trying to do the same.

Ali would also show up when requested and help aspiring martial artists out. One guy wrote a great article about Ali sparring with him. He said that Ali was teasing him good naturedly calling him "master" and bowing, and when they sparred the guy worked up to really trying to get Ali...Yu know just to see LOL.

he says when he did so Ali would make big eyes and act scared to get a laugh from the crowd...The upshot of it was, Ali at some point tapped the guy with a light flicker of a jab and the guy writes about how he felt himself buckling with that flick which he did not even see...Ali apparently seeing this made sure the guy stayed up and looked good the rest of the round.

The guy was blown away by the speed and power but more so by Ali's attitude.

[Rusty Tromboni]

There was a time when George Dillman was a legit Martial Artist, the same guy who is peddling nonsense now about "No touch KO's" Ali used to train in camps with Dillman. Also on 86st in New York in the 60's Richard Chung had one of the first dojo's for Tia Kwon Do in the city. Ali was a friend and guest...of course what people called Tai Kwon Do back then does not resemble the strip mall dojo with kids classes galour! Those guys had to be able to at least kick hard and fast against someone trying to do the same.

Ali would also show up when requested and help aspiring martial artists out. One guy wrote a great article about Ali sparring with him. He said that Ali was teasing him good naturedly calling him "master" and bowing, and when they sparred the guy worked up to really trying to get Ali...Yu know just to see LOL.

he says when he did so Ali would make big eyes and act scared to get a laugh from the crowd...The upshot of it was, Ali at some point tapped the guy with a light flicker of a jab and the guy writes about how he felt himself buckling with that flick which he did not even see...Ali apparently seeing this made sure the guy stayed up and looked good the rest of the round.

The guy was blown away by the speed and power but more so by Ali's attitude.

you mind sharing more about early TKD? I hear that Muay Thai got to Brazil via REAL tae kwon do - the fighting art.

I wish Ali had fought Inoki for real. But Ali knew he had no business fighting a wrestler; especially one who could break his arm off.

[billeau2]

you mind sharing more about early TKD? I hear that Muay Thai got to Brazil via REAL tae kwon do - the fighting art.

I wish Ali had fought Inoki for real. But Ali knew he had no business fighting a wrestler; especially one who could break his arm off.

Sure.

First off Tae Kwon Do as a large scale phenomena was successful as a financial enterprise because the Koreans had marketing skills and a large percentage had introduction to the art...something like all military personal have a rank when they get out of the army...

But this has to be looked as a separate development from what I will mention in short order. The thing to understand here is that these schools gave this impression that Korean Karate was kicking based and sport based. Chuck norris for example studied "Tang So Do" which literally translates as art of the empty hand...sound familiar? It was Karate, just with certain Korean stylized elements... Tang So Do was less known but in Korea at the time it was popular as Tae Kwon Do.

Tae Kwon Do itself is technically taking Korean folk foot fighting known as Tae Kyon and Tang So Do (Korean Karate) and mixing them together. A lot of the Olympic sportive kicks that are used in Tae Kwon Do look like Tae Kyon kicks which are often done while jumping and in circular motions.

So... If we look at the middle character/word for Tae Kwon Do "Kwan" means a school, a Dojo of sorts. In Korean Karate the big issue was whether Korean KWans should practice a Japanese Art of change it.... So Hap Ki Do is a version of Aikido and Tang So Do/Tae Kwon Do.... For example. Some Kwans wanted to use the feet more, others did not... Some Kwans imitate Chinese Boxing styles...that is what Kuk Sool Wan is for example.

Mu Duk Kwan is a perfect example of a version of Korean Tae Kwon Do that is based more in hand techniques. part of the reason the names are as they are is because of the rift between those who wanted to change the arts to make them more korean, and those who wanted to practice more traditional Karate... It became convenient, if not always correct, to use a "Kwan" as a general term for school and to more or less subsume all Kwan as being a combination or way of hand and foot fighting hence we get... Tae (hand foot) Kwan (school organisation) Do (Japanese transliteration of (Method/way). Keep in mind there are Tang So Do schools, but they would be considered a Kwan technically as well.

Different kwans had different methods. This included training methods. There are many different Kwans subsumed. Some are very aggressive and others more for sport. Mu Duk Kwan guys were very good fighters, I fought against them in tourneys many times back in the day. The art is totally linear with karate punches and aggressive attacks...the best defense being a contnual attack. These Kwans have history including training the Korean special forces who we once trained with for a week or so.

The Korean schools that fought more realistically, did better in the ring, like what we would expect. One interesting aside is the stylistic points of Tae Kwon Do foot techniques and muy Thai. The reach advantage for the Korean stylist, IF he trains full contact, is actually very difficult for the Muy Thai guy to overcome. often enough the Muy Thai guy gets caught in the head with a circular kick. So yes Korean stylists who emphasize kicks can do well against Muy Thai fighters. Watch a superfoot wallace fight to get a sense of how this looks.

Brazil traditionally had one of the most extensive martial arts communities of any country in the world... One proved oneself fighting. Most people do not know that this community included catch wrestlers, and other wrestlers, who challenged the gracies...Lute livre was, I believe a style that was wrestling based. i say this because it focused on the holds, there was not the technical fine points of Ju Jutsu... They had Vale Tudo (anything goes) matches, as did boxers, karate stylists, kick boxers etc. So if the Korean stylists could win in the ring, they would get a place in Brazil. Capoera had some similar kicking dynamics as the Korean stylists as well.


Hope this helps.

[billeau2]

you mind sharing more about early TKD? I hear that Muay Thai got to Brazil via REAL tae kwon do - the fighting art.

I wish Ali had fought Inoki for real. But Ali knew he had no business fighting a wrestler; especially one who could break his arm off.

A couple of more points here, just random considerations:

Brazil has Karate from japan, being that the Japanese ex patriot community was the biggest in the world perhaps. Heck, you can actually find classical Japanese Arts that compare saber techniques from Spanish Sword fighting... The thrusting movement of the Portuguese conquistadors.

Korean karate probably first reached the island through Japan. Remember Tang So Do is Korean karate, Shotokan really...same forms done with a Korean bias (more upright). But when a Tang So Do guy does well against a Thai Fighter and is asked what he studies what will he say? because Tang So Do is in essence a "Kwan" he might well say "I study Tae Kwon Do." which translates as I study hand foot fighting in Korean school.

My final point on this: What we see today and is called karate has to be evaluated against what karate really looks and trains like. Most so called karate in the ring to me looks like kick boxing. The real style of karate one does not bounce, one explodes into the strikes and hits to break things. A well trained karateka is fast, strong with kick and punch and extremely aggressive... Even the original concept of the block in Karate Do (less combat oriented Shotokan) is supposed to break the arm of the opponent.

So the old styled Tae Kwon Do opponent faced would probably look like a Mu Duk Kwon stylist, perhaps with more kicks.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Sure.

First off Tae Kwon Do as a large scale phenomena was successful as a financial enterprise because the Koreans had marketing skills and a large percentage had introduction to the art...something like all military personal have a rank when they get out of the army...

But this has to be looked as a separate development from what I will mention in short order. The thing to understand here is that these schools gave this impression that Korean Karate was kicking based and sport based. Chuck norris for example studied "Tang So Do" which literally translates as art of the empty hand...sound familiar? It was Karate, just with certain Korean stylized elements... Tang So Do was less known but in Korea at the time it was popular as Tae Kwon Do.

Tae Kwon Do itself is technically taking Korean folk foot fighting known as Tae Kyon and Tang So Do (Korean Karate) and mixing them together. A lot of the Olympic sportive kicks that are used in Tae Kwon Do look like Tae Kyon kicks which are often done while jumping and in circular motions.

So... If we look at the middle character/word for Tae Kwon Do "Kwan" means a school, a Dojo of sorts. In Korean Karate the big issue was whether Korean KWans should practice a Japanese Art of change it.... So Hap Ki Do is a version of Aikido and Tang So Do/Tae Kwon Do.... For example. Some Kwans wanted to use the feet more, others did not... Some Kwans imitate Chinese Boxing styles...that is what Kuk Sool Wan is for example.

Mu Duk Kwan is a perfect example of a version of Korean Tae Kwon Do that is based more in hand techniques. part of the reason the names are as they are is because of the rift between those who wanted to change the arts to make them more korean, and those who wanted to practice more traditional Karate... It became convenient, if not always correct, to use a "Kwan" as a general term for school and to more or less subsume all Kwan as being a combination or way of hand and foot fighting hence we get... Tae (hand foot) Kwan (school organisation) Do (Japanese transliteration of (Method/way). Keep in mind there are Tang So Do schools, but they would be considered a Kwan technically as well.

Different kwans had different methods. This included training methods. There are many different Kwans subsumed. Some are very aggressive and others more for sport. Mu Duk Kwan guys were very good fighters, I fought against them in tourneys many times back in the day. The art is totally linear with karate punches and aggressive attacks...the best defense being a contnual attack. These Kwans have history including training the Korean special forces who we once trained with for a week or so.

The Korean schools that fought more realistically, did better in the ring, like what we would expect. One interesting aside is the stylistic points of Tae Kwon Do foot techniques and muy Thai. The reach advantage for the Korean stylist, IF he trains full contact, is actually very difficult for the Muy Thai guy to overcome. often enough the Muy Thai guy gets caught in the head with a circular kick. So yes Korean stylists who emphasize kicks can do well against Muy Thai fighters. Watch a superfoot wallace fight to get a sense of how this looks.

Brazil traditionally had one of the most extensive martial arts communities of any country in the world... One proved oneself fighting. Most people do not know that this community included catch wrestlers, and other wrestlers, who challenged the gracies...Lute livre was, I believe a style that was wrestling based. i say this because it focused on the holds, there was not the technical fine points of Ju Jutsu... They had Vale Tudo (anything goes) matches, as did boxers, karate stylists, kick boxers etc. So if the Korean stylists could win in the ring, they would get a place in Brazil. Capoera had some similar kicking dynamics as the Korean stylists as well.


Hope this helps.

Best. Post. Ever.