Roy Jones fights these 1930's heavies

[New England]

Okie dokie then

that guy has gotta live under a bridge.

[robertzimmerman]

Didn't he start at 154?

No, he only had a few fights at the weight.

He was a JMW in the amateurs though.

[New England]

in a modern ring, modern ref, modern gloves, there wasn't a fighter alive in the 1930's that i'd pick over a prime jones weighing 180 or 185 lbs.

i probably wouldn't pick any fighter in history all the way until joe louis to beat a prime roy jones at any weight. i think he beats every single one or them.

after that he starts to have trouble with great HW. marciano, liston, clay, frazier, foreman and going forth in time. too durable, too accurate, hit too hard, and increasingly, too big. he'd start getting knocked out or outworked.

[The Old LefHook]

Let's see... a little Meadowlark Lemon, a pinch of friendly gangster menace...

Tap dancing cats in canes and finery, dandies dressed for plantation stages, y'all musta forgot. The chicken scratch, the homemade rap, the rooster hop. I belong to the ages. Y'all musta forgot.

[OctoberRed]

No, he only had a few fights at the weight.

He was a JMW in the amateurs though.

He was flip flopping for two years between 154 and 160. It was more than a handful of fights.

[robertzimmerman]

He was flip flopping for two years between 154 and 160. It was more than a handful of fights.

Yeah, he had around 10 fights where he weighed in under 160, but I think he only had 2 where he weighed-in at 154. He was never officially a JMW for any prolonged period of time.

It doesn't matter does it. The point stands. And if you were to say that the LHW division was his 4th weight class, it just makes it all the more impressive.

[billeau2]

Roy Jones and Tarver

I think Jones captures the imagination more than even Mayweather regarding how good some people think he was. One big issue is his chin. People want to look at the Tarver fight as an exception of some sort or another. But Roy did show occasional clues. De Valle knocked him down pretty easily...though it was not significant per se.

I don't believe one can disregard what happened with Tarver. Toi say things like he would dominate older fighters is particularly insane because fighters generally were trained in such a way that they would engage frequently. Someone would catch him on the chin and KO him...its that simple. I don't know if it would be Schmelling, Grebb, Walker, Ray Robinson...but someone would.

Also Roy showed that he does not like to be pressured. Glencoffe, the road warrior is actually a decent pressure fighter and he beat Jones convincingly. We cannot discount these situations as totally abhorant. At his best these would still be weaknesses.

I admire Jones and Ali as being athletic and special in their attributes the way that Ray Robinson could be...BUT both Robinson and Ali had a much better chin. This matters.

[robertzimmerman]

I think Jones captures the imagination more than even Mayweather regarding how good some people think he was. One big issue is his chin. People want to look at the Tarver fight as an exception of some sort or another. But Roy did show occasional clues. De Valle knocked him down pretty easily...though it was not significant per se.

I don't believe one can disregard what happened with Tarver. Toi say things like he would dominate older fighters is particularly insane because fighters generally were trained in such a way that they would engage frequently. Someone would catch him on the chin and KO him...its that simple. I don't know if it would be Schmelling, Grebb, Walker, Ray Robinson...but someone would.

Also Roy showed that he does not like to be pressured. Glencoffe, the road warrior is actually a decent pressure fighter and he beat Jones convincingly. We cannot discount these situations as totally abhorant. At his best these would still be weaknesses.

I admire Jones and Ali as being athletic and special in their attributes the way that Ray Robinson could be...BUT both Robinson and Ali had a much better chin. This matters.

Roy never had a great chin, but he's took some decent shots over the years. He took a good right hand from Ruiz.

Del Valle caught him with a good shot, but Roy slipped on the wet canvas which is why he went down.

You can't say for certainty that the fighters of old would have knocked him out. They'd have needed the perfect opportunity as well as to have avoided Roy hitting them cleanly too. It wouldn't have been a given.

The fight with Glen Johnson means nothing. Roy was still shell shocked after the Tarver fight, and he should never have gotten back in the ring so soon. Glen would never have beaten a pre-HW version of Roy.

[billeau2]

Roy never had a great chin, but he's took some decent shots over the years. He took a good right hand from Ruiz.

Del Valle caught him with a good shot, but Roy slipped on the wet canvas which is why he went down.

You can't say for certainty that the fighters of old would have knocked him out. They'd have needed the perfect opportunity as well as to have avoided Roy hitting them cleanly too. It wouldn't have been a given.

The fight with Glen Johnson means nothing. Roy was still shell shocked after the Tarver fight, and he should never have gotten back in the ring so soon. Glen would never have beaten a pre-HW version of Roy.

Nobody can say anything with certainty...we are all casting opinions.

I don't agree about the fight with Johnson. I believe it demonstrates a weakness. Perhaps not in and of itself, but makes one wonder how Jones would have done against a really good pressure fighter who would not let up so easy. Surely prime Jones would not get beat by Johnson, but it still tells us there is a weakness there that could have been exploited in his prime by a fellow great fighter.

I notice this tendency and perhaps I have done it as well... to have to explain every contingency, every fight, as an exception, as demanding a reason why it happened. At the farthest extreme we have people like Queenie who will explain away everything as a conspiracy...or people who will explain every loss, or every win as being because the fighter was caught by suprise, didn't train, etc etc...

Jones getting dropped by LaValle is what it is...Just like saying that Toney had a horrible camp, was not prepared for the fight with Jones, etc etc... is equally nonsensical. I mean Jones was not wobbled, I get that lol.

[robertzimmerman]

Nobody can say anything with certainty...we are all casting opinions.

I don't agree about the fight with Johnson. I believe it demonstrates a weakness. Perhaps not in and of itself, but makes one wonder how Jones would have done against a really good pressure fighter who would not let up so easy. Surely prime Jones would not get beat by Johnson, but it still tells us there is a weakness there that could have been exploited in his prime by a fellow great fighter.

I notice this tendency and perhaps I have done it as well... to have to explain every contingency, every fight, as an exception, as demanding a reason why it happened. At the farthest extreme we have people like Queenie who will explain away everything as a conspiracy...or people who will explain every loss, or every win as being because the fighter was caught by suprise, didn't train, etc etc...

Jones getting dropped by LaValle is what it is...Just like saying that Toney had a horrible camp, was not prepared for the fight with Jones, etc etc... is equally nonsensical. I mean Jones was not wobbled, I get that lol.

I agree, nobody can say anything with certainty. But there's enough footage out there to make an educated guess.

Roy was pressured throughout his career. Granted, not by ATG's. Off the top of my head, by: Pazienza, Brannon, Sosa and Tarver.

The Johnson fight means nothing to me. He was just in the right place at the right time. Roy should never have been in the ring that night. I think he just signed for the fight to try eradicate the embarrassing loss to Tarver. He signed for the Johnson fight less than a month after.

I don't have to explain away every loss. They are what they are. There's no excuses for the Tarver loss. He just got caught by a great shot, which could happen to anyone. Tarver deserves huge credit. But against Johnson, it seems clear to me that he was nowhere near 100% neither mentally or physically.

Del Valle caught Roy with a great shot, but if you watched the fight, the chances are he wouldn't have gone down if he hadn't have slipped on the wet canvas. And that's not not looking for an excuse. You can see clearly on the overhead slo-mo, and the referee had to halt the action on 2 occasions in order to wipe the canvas with a towel.

Toney was weakened with the weight loss, and that takes a little shine off of the win. But in my opinion, Roy was a stylistic nightmare for him.