Wlad–Chagaev & the lineal HW title

[DreamFighter]

Wlad was 1, Chag 3 in Ring and everywhere else really. Wlad beat everyone but his brother by that point so some went from there (me included) in part because the brothers weren't going to fight and Wlad was doing more to beat all the other top contenders. When Wlad beat Povetkin, Vitali was retired. That was the first 100% 1-2 fight he won and if it's not Chagaev, then one can start the line there.

wlad had beaten everyone? His run up to chageav is one of the most appalling in history.

[QueensburyRules]

wlad had beaten everyone? His run up to chageav is one of the most appalling in history.

--- Whooped a few of your boys, eh?

Too many sour g****s and your poor nurse is gonna have to change you out again.

[Laligalaliga]

--- There is no lineal belt or org unless the tooth fairy runs it.

Wlad fought #3 Chagaev just like AJ fought #3 Parker, but only Wlad awarded the ring title. Boxing is as dyslexically bipolar as it gets.

Only fighter caring about the lineal title is Fury who vacated his titles by his actions. Notice nobody cares about the other 16 division lineal titles, so I guess you could say the lineal heavy title moaners are "special!"

I can't help but to agree with you absolutely.

[billeau2]

May I ask y'all, at what point did the lineal title stop adhering to the old traditions?

For example an easy one is champion's prerogative. Back in the day the Champ claimed who was number one contender. That of course went away with bodies. You do not have any lineals during the era when the title would be called lineal as opposed to simply champion naming their contender.

billeau2 has got me thinking on it. The lineal does not have to fight a champion to lose their lineal status. If they lose to someone who is not even on the sanctioning bodies world ranks that person becomes the lineal champion. Does that in turn make those who tried and failed, like Pianeta or Sefari, automatically number one contenders to the lineal title? Can we consider that champion's prerogative?

For me, I always just look at lineal as the olden title. I go by the old traditions. From my understanding, the bodies split up the belts and by the 70s(?) the public was just hungry for one face so they demanded a return to the old ways lead by Fleischer who was a big fan of bare knuckle. So to me, Sullivan's belt is Sullivan's belt. You can't win that **** by committee. The Fancy done tried and the Champ done smacked that down. Look at Peter Maher and ****.

I don't argue with Wlad as lineal myself because the biggest most important rule of lineal still applies. Lineal, whether you mean the present idea inspired in the 20th century or you mean the olden traditions handed down from Figg and the sort, has always been a popularity contest first. If the populace says you can break lineal rules you get to. Broughton Taylor is a good look into for that sort of firsts.

So I'm not sure about Wlad being lineal but given so many folks are I don't hardly put no thought to it and just accept what I've been told. I am more interested in pinning down the differences in lineal now with lineal from at least the Sullivan era if not prior.

The bolded part. that is the biggest strength of the lineal. People like queeny get it @33 backwards: They need government, or some state sanctioned committee to hold their hand and chew their food for them. The fans are the reason for the sport, and when the fans give their power away, regarding what should be simple and straight forward, with little complication, every Tom **** and Harry are more than happy to step in there and "Sanction" something for you.

Ive seen it in the martial arts for years. New jersey even tried to get a gaggle of some of the worse sleeze ball martial artists and make a martial arts license. More fees to the state, and competency decided by loons. What has the british boxing board done the last years to justify their existence? well they did almost manage to stop one of the best fights in years...Chisora and Haye had to fight outside their juristiction, they wanted to shut the fight down.

People that mock the lineal don't understand that like a good friend, it is around when you need it... So yeah when we have a strong dominant champ, and the lineal really is about the heavyweights primarily.... then no one needs to claim it. When alphabet soup starts to determine who is worthy then the lineal needs to step up. Again, very simple really.

[billeau2]

I can't help but to agree with you absolutely.

Just ask yourself one question. Why do you need some official to make something legitimate? If you are a fan and watching the heavyweights fight, and you get a champ who is not very good, and never beat the previous champ, and there is another champ who beat the previous champ, who also had a lot of talent, why do you need an official to tell you who is the champion?

There is a such thing as tradition. Traditions are socially sanctioned and do not need the legitimacy, the money, or the power given to the state to make the same determinations.

I mean I respect your opinion and all, but if you really agree with that idiot you might want to think about what you are agreeing with. He is saying that in a bar full of messican fight fans, who follow the fighters, may box themselves, etc... someone should pass around a hat take a good deal of money, and give the power to decide who is the winner, the title holder, etc to someone else because it is official then.

Keep in mind that some of these things are needed, but do you think these guys above, I used Messicans because I like how the S just rolls off the keyboard and because they tend to be great fans, need an organization to tell them officially who the best fighter is? Or should they decide that as the fans? When you watch baseball would you like some organization to tell you who should go to the world series? or should it be the team that beat the other team that was the best?

[QueensburyRules]

--- You don't represent the people, I do.

You rely on some tinfoil wearing Loons to tell you how to think. The people have never cast a vote for lineal, only tinfoils do.

In the largest international boxing poll held in Vegas with free call in #s , the p4p results:

1-SRRobinson
2- PAC
3-Ali

The poll included all the original division classes minus the jr divisions. They never asked for the greatest Lineal champs, and the poll assembled by supposed "boxing experts" willing to accept an actual ********ic vote.

One of your resident Lineal Loons didn't even know other Lineal Loons say PAC won 4 divisional Lineal titles, probably the most ever, but who could really ever know in tinfoil beanie world of fragmented Lineal Loons?

>>>>Insert you and only you unless some other Loon wants to chime in with sweet nothings!

[DreamFighter]

--- Whooped a few of your boys, eh?

Too many sour g****s and your poor nurse is gonna have to change you out again.

w hooped by four of my boys, slight difference but i get why u tried to change it.

[Laligalaliga]

Just ask yourself one question. Why do you need some official to make something legitimate? If you are a fan and watching the heavyweights fight, and you get a champ who is not very good, and never beat the previous champ, and there is another champ who beat the previous champ, who also had a lot of talent, why do you need an official to tell you who is the champion?

There is a such thing as tradition. Traditions are socially sanctioned and do not need the legitimacy, the money, or the power given to the state to make the same determinations.

I mean I respect your opinion and all, but if you really agree with that idiot you might want to think about what you are agreeing with. He is saying that in a bar full of messican fight fans, who follow the fighters, may box themselves, etc... someone should pass around a hat take a good deal of money, and give the power to decide who is the winner, the title holder, etc to someone else because it is official then.

Keep in mind that some of these things are needed, but do you think these guys above, I used Messicans because I like how the S just rolls off the keyboard and because they tend to be great fans, need an organization to tell them officially who the best fighter is? Or should they decide that as the fans? When you watch baseball would you like some organization to tell you who should go to the world series? or should it be the team that beat the other team that was the best?

Am not here to dispute your opinion, you are rightly entitled to it but he made a valid point which I agreed with which from all indications happens to be a fact.
Why is it in only HW division that some sections of fans are screaming lineal? Why are they not screaming the same for other 16 weight division?

The HW lineal has been dead for a while, it didn't even surfaced as a title on the line when Fury fought seferi and pienatia. Why was drugged out when wilder came into the picture?
Look at the scenario critically, you will see the BS in between the lines. Some sections are trying to use the title to boost their argument, hence, they dug it out from the grave.

[HOUDINI563]

P4P has nothing to do with how many titles/paper titles a fighter holds. P4P is a measure of greatness in fighting ability regardless of weight.

The point is you cannot compare winning a paper title in an era of many paper titles to winning the true championship when only ONE title is available.

When you have multiple champions in every division logically you have what would have been contenders holding “titles” they really do not deserve.

Just think how many paper titles Armstrong would win today if he could win three true titles in an era of only EIGHT titles in total?

[Marchegiano]

Am not here to dispute your opinion, you are rightly entitled to it but he made a valid point which I agreed with which from all indications happens to be a fact.
Why is it in only HW division that some sections of fans are screaming lineal? Why are they not screaming the same for other 16 weight division?

The HW lineal has been dead for a while, it didn't even surfaced as a title on the line when Fury fought seferi and pienatia. Why was drugged out when wilder came into the picture?
Look at the scenario critically, you will see the BS in between the lines. Some sections are trying to use the title to boost their argument, hence, they dug it out from the grave.

Heavy is the only division with actual lineal ties.

Weight divisions come after sanctioning bodies not before. Before sanctioning bodies they are informal. Which means there is no LW division per se. The LW champ would be decided between two of the smaller active fighters of the era if at all. So in one era they may be 130s and in another 150s. Throughout the scope of time it'll jump all around. How does one spread that lineage out to the divisions? Only one man can beat a man and today the weight divisions are not flexible. Same for WW and MW. I don't reckon any other division has bare knuckle ties.

So, for me, because I'm a historical whore, Lineal outside of HW is an affront to Lineal. It does not exist. Like a ****ing lineal CW...gtfo with that ****. A lineage that goes back to the 20th century ain't got no ties to no old ways. That weight division is from the bodies and by the bodies and the only thing that presides over it is the bodies.

----

To be fair to Tyson there was never any point when he did not claim lineal. Folks didn't give a **** or did not take him seriously until he fought Wilder. If you look at when Ring stripped him, which is a ways prior to Wilder, he does explicitly state it was the first time in Ring history the Ring title and Lineal title were separated. He was claiming lineage.

I don't remember Wlad actually claiming it, but this whole thread is about how Ring claimed it after Chagaev and no one had a problem until Fury claimed it after retiring. So, I reckon Fury's claim good and strong in the old traditional ways.

The dispute over Wlad's lineage should have been handled during Wlad's reign. After is too late, that's tradition. So going in Wlad was the lineal and Tyson did lick him proper. Retiring hasn't stripped any of the old lineals but I'm not so sure about modern lineals.

I can tell youse this, Jem Ward did it like five times to Deaf Burke and Corbett did it to Maher. Both them dudes got their belts back after retirement just by claiming them even though they'd done been won by another in a vacancy fight.

So unless some modern history changes that tradition I reckon Fury's good to go bubba.