Why Jack Johnson is Not as Great as You We’re Told

[Ivich]

I already posted that quote from Moyle’s book, you insisted it wasn’t on the page I cited. You were playing games because you were painted into a corner with nowhere to run. Now you want to use the quote? You insist Johnson’s first book was a parody and fiction. It wasn’t. It was a compilation of articles that quoted him and that he contributed to first hand.

No Boston papers that he was aware of mentioned a knockdown. How many news agencies or papers were there in Boston back then? I doubt all papers of that day were preserved in the archives.

You think you know more about Johnson than anyone, as if you have some insight to the man that no one else has. You cherry pick what you want to believe.

'
Nope I said it wasnt on the page in MY book whereupon you along with Mendoza/ Dr Z called me a liar.

Lets try this, the opening chapter of Clay's book starts with this;
Chapter One .
Weymouth Falls.
" His money and eyesight were long gone,but Sam was a millionaire in memories".

Is that correct
Pick any page out at random if you wish.

Yes?

No?
Let's also try this
Geoffrey C Ward author of Unforgiveable Blackness.
Randy Roberts author of Papa Jack
Adam Pollack author of Jack Johnson In The Ring And Out
Couldnt find any mention of Langford knocking Johnson down either!

I am no expert and Ive stated that many times ,but I have 4 books on Johnson,and have read 2 others Plus I've also got George Silers," Inside Facts On Pugilism" Siler discovered Johnson and brought him to the notice of match maker Jimmy Bronson.
You don't like Johnson that's fine,there is much to dislike about him.
You don't like me,that's fine too. But by your refusal to address the facts on this issue you are demeaning and embarrassing yourself . You're not Dr Z,you're better than that,so wake up and smell the coffee!

[GhostofDempsey]

'
Nope I said it wasnt on the page in MY book whereupon you along with Mendoza/ Dr Z called me a liar.

Lets try this, the opening chapter of Clay's book starts with this;
Chapter One .
Weymouth Falls.
" His money and eyesight were long gone,but Sam was a millionaire in memories".

Is that correct
Pick any page out at random if you wish.

Yes?

No?
Let's also try this
Geoffrey C Ward author of Unforgiveable Blackness.
Randy Roberts author of Papa Jack
Adam Pollack author of Jack Johnson In The Ring And Out
Couldnt find any mention of Langford knocking Johnson down either!

I am no expert and Ive stated that many times ,but I have 4 books on Johnson,and have read 2 others Plus I've also got George Silers," Inside Facts On Pugilism" Siler discovered Johnson and brought him to the notice of match maker Jimmy Bronson.
You don't like Johnson that's fine,there is much to dislike about him.
You don't like me,that's fine too. But by your refusal to address the facts on this issue you are demeaning and embarrassing yourself . You're not Dr Z,you're better than that,so wake up and smell the coffee!

You played that semantic argument for all you could until I posted the page. Even then you still tried to swerve the quote.

I have dozens of boxing books. Most of them are consistent, some of them contradict other books. What I am trying to get across to the attrition posters who have a deep rooted need to be right and win at all costs, is that some things are difficult to quantify beyond a shadow of a doubt. Especially a hundred years later. He said, she said…quotes are often taken out of context or as they are passed along through a dozen people, it changes altogether. Some things can be argued until our fingers fall off, and none of us would definitively prove what a fighters true intentions may have been, whether it’s Johnson drawing the color line or Dempsey/Wills. We do know that newspapers relied on sensational headlines to sell papers, same way they do today. They didn’t have strict journalistic standards back then. The first person to get a story in would get the story out there. There were also payoffs, bribes, and promoters and managers who also served as news writers posing an ethical conflict of interest…McKetrick comes to mind.

A majority of historians and sources collectively agree that Johnson drew the color line as champion. The fighters themselves insist he did, and even Johnson himself suggested as much. You are certainly entitled to believe what you want, but your opinion isn’t any more valuable than other members who have done their due diligence on the topic. Agree to disagree.

[Ivich]

You played that semantic argument for all you could until I posted the page. Even then you still tried to swerve the quote.

I have dozens of boxing books. Most of them are consistent, some of them contradict other books. What I am trying to get across to the attrition posters who have a deep rooted need to be right and win at all costs, is that some things are difficult to quantify beyond a shadow of a doubt. Especially a hundred years later. He said, she said…quotes are often taken out of context or as they are passed along through a dozen people, it changes altogether. Some things can be argued until our fingers fall off, and none of us would definitively prove what a fighters true intentions may have been, whether it’s Johnson drawing the color line or Dempsey/Wills. We do know that newspapers relied on sensational headlines to sell papers, same way they do today. They didn’t have strict journalistic standards back then. The first person to get a story in would get the story out there. There were also payoffs, bribes, and promoters and managers who also served as news writers posing an ethical conflict of interest…McKetrick comes to mind.

A majority of historians and sources collectively agree that Johnson drew the color line as champion. The fighters themselves insist he did, and even Johnson himself suggested as much. You are certainly entitled to believe what you want, but your opinion isn’t any more valuable than other members who have done their due diligence on the topic. Agree to disagree.

I swerve nothing.
You didnt answer my question.
Is that .or is it not, the opening line of Moyle's Langford book?
A simple yes or no is all that is required!
Was I lying when I said I have the book ?
Or was I telling the truth?
It requires a one word answer .
Dan McKetrick managed both Jeannette and Moran. Neither had a favourable opinion of him.

You've dozens of boxing books? I've over 200 and about the same amount of films
,I started collecting when I was in my teens over 50 years ago.

My opinion is just that,my opinion.
I've never pretended to be an expert on any fighter.

I appreciate the new, more reasonable approach from you and will temper my responses accordingly.

[GhostofDempsey]

I swerve nothing.
You didnt answer my question.
Is that .or is it not, the opening line of Moyle's Langford book?
A simple yes or no is all that is required!
Was I lying when I said I have the book ?
Or was I telling the truth?
It requires a one word answer .
Dan McKetrick managed both Jeannette and Moran. Neither had a favourable opinion of him.

You've dozens of boxing books? I've over 200 and about the same amount of films
,I started collecting when I was in my teens over 50 years ago.

My opinion is just that,my opinion.
I've never pretended to be an expert on any fighter.

I appreciate the new, more reasonable approach from you and will temper my responses accordingly.

So now it’s a pissing contest about who has more books and videos? Is that what you think quan****** you as the authority on Johnson and all other fighters you claim to be an expert on? As usual you ignored the main points of my post so you could blather on about right or wrong and give yourself another pat on the back. Get over yourself. You couldn’t get along with anyone on the other forum where you were banned and you can’t get along here. Get some sleep, you’re cranky.

[Ivich]

So now it’s a pissing contest about who has more books and videos? Is that what you think quan****** you as the authority on Johnson and all other fighters you claim to be an expert on? As usual you ignored the main points of my post so you could blather on about right or wrong and give yourself another pat on the back. Get over yourself. You couldn’t get along with anyone on the other forum where you were banned and you can’t get along here. Get some sleep, you’re cranky.

I see you ducked my questions about .
Whether I have the book or not?
Whether I'm a liar or not ?
I knew you would just like you ducked me asking you if I was a Langford hater?

YOU first mentioned how many books you had NOT me,so if there was a pissing contest YOU began urinating FIRST I dont know how many times I have stated that I am not an expert.
This was my last post on this thread.

"My opinion is just that,my opinion.
I've never pretended to be an expert on any fighter."


Why don't you get someone to read posts for you?
You obviously have trouble with the written word!
I get along fine with those I respect and I want to get along with.And I post on two other forums.
So much for your offer to agree to disagree.

[Dr. Z]

I already posted that quote from Moyle’s book, you insisted it wasn’t on the page I cited. You were playing games because you were painted into a corner with nowhere to run. Now you want to use the quote? You insist Johnson’s first book was a parody and fiction. It wasn’t. It was a compilation of articles that quoted him and that he contributed to first hand.

No Boston papers that he was aware of mentioned a knockdown. How many news agencies or papers were there in Boston back then? I doubt all papers of that day were preserved in the archives.

You think you know more about Johnson than anyone, as if you have some insight to the man that no one else has. You cherry pick what you want to believe.

GhostofDempsey hammering Ivich He is a cherry picker and a liar!

[Dr. Z]

I see you ducked my questions about .
Whether I have the book or not?
Whether I'm a liar or not ?
I knew you would just like you ducked me asking you if I was a Langford hater?

YOU first mentioned how many books you had NOT me,so if there was a pissing contest YOU began urinating FIRST I dont know how many times I have stated that I am not an expert.
This was my last post on this thread.

"My opinion is just that,my opinion.
I've never pretended to be an expert on any fighter."


Why don't you get someone to read posts for you?
You obviously have trouble with the written word!
I get along fine with those I respect and I want to get along with.And I post on two other forums.
So much for your offer to agree to disagree.

Which two other forums do you post on? I bet your are unliked there. Prove it! Watch now he doesn't answer! He must hide his multiple id's

[Ivich]

GhostofDempsey hammering Ivich He is a cherry picker and a liar!

You just keep whistling in the dark, you sad fool.LOL

[Ivich]

Which two other forums do you post on? I bet your are unliked there. Prove it! Watch now he doesn't answer! He must hide his multiple id's

Mind your own business you cretin.I can tell you this, you aren't welcome there!

[GhostofDempsey]

I see you ducked my questions about .
Whether I have the book or not?
Whether I'm a liar or not ?
I knew you would just like you ducked me asking you if I was a Langford hater?

YOU first mentioned how many books you had NOT me,so if there was a pissing contest YOU began urinating FIRST I dont know how many times I have stated that I am not an expert.
This was my last post on this thread.

"My opinion is just that,my opinion.
I've never pretended to be an expert on any fighter."


Why don't you get someone to read posts for you?
You obviously have trouble with the written word!
I get along fine with those I respect and I want to get along with.And I post on two other forums.
So much for your offer to agree to disagree.

Stop being an idiot, no one is ducking you or your ridiculous questions. You behave just like that other antagonistic fool and you aren't impressing anyone you crusty drunk.

No, it was you who was touting all the books you own and the ones you've read, I simply shared that I too own and have read books on boxing. You behave as though you are the only one who reads and that you are the end all be all to boxing knowledge on here. You're an arrogant, gaslighting curmudgeon who is in desperate need of validation. The more we disagree with you the nastier you become.