Why Jack Johnson is Not as Great as You We’re Told

[Anthony342]

Like any other fighter, he is not immune to criticism. If historians, fans, sports writers, etc., can dissect every other HOF'ers resume, then Johnson is fair game. His claim to fame is that he was the first black HW champion, in an era that was not at all ready to embrace a black champion. For what he had to endure I extend my respect to the man.

That said, if we break down his wins/losses, and quality of opposition, we see a man who fought a lot of much smaller opponents or less experienced ones. Name one fighter in his prime who we give all this praise and accolades to for taking on a journeyman who is 0-3 (Jeanette) and then fighting him a half dozen times until he is 10-9? How many HWs get credit for their best wins being against middleweights?

If Tyson padded his record against Hagler, Hearns, Joppy...would be receive the same degree of praise and respect as Johnson does for fighting Burns, Ketchel, Langford, who were small middleweights? What if Lewis or Holyfield or even the new champs today decided they would fight journeymen and LHWs over and over, are they still deserving of all the glory?

If Lewis lost to a guy like Botha, the way Johnson lost to Willard, would he ever live that down?



For me it doesn't correlate because the quality of the wins just isn't there. I always cite Sam Langford as one of the greatest HWs of that era, even though he was a MW. He was the antithesis of Johnson. He fought everyone and anyone, regardless of how big, strong or fast they were. Sam Langford was really ahead of his time, and I credit him with evolving the sport and demonstrating the style that has developed in modern fighters. Bobbing, weaving, feinting, ducking, side to side lateral movement, timing, combinations, it was all there! Compare his resume Johnson and it isn't even close. But, Langford was not a champion so he stands in the shadow of Johnson in the history books.

So then your argument is that you don't consider Jack Johnson an ATG?

[HOUDINI563]

Johnson’s claim to fame is he is the first black champion, a defensive master with a wonderful jab and one of the best uppercuts in boxing history. He is also rated as one of hwt boxing’s greatest hwt champions.

[GhostofDempsey]

This is classic Johnson, clinch, clinch, clinch, shove, clinch, clinch...



This is Langford, a more polished boxer...feinting, jabbing, ducking, cutting off ring, throwing combinations.

[GhostofDempsey]

Johnson was champion from 1908-1915. During his reign, the top three challengers were Langford, Jeanette, and McVey. You could toss in Gunboat Smith as well. Toward the end of Johnson’s title reign, you could make an argument for Wills. Johnson drew the color line vs. Langford, Jeanette, and Mcvey. There were big money offers, and the matches could have happened in Australia, or Europe. Johnson wanted easier fights agaisnt white fighters who were either very small, old and washed up, or journeyman. No question, he drew the color line. He did fight Jim “Battling “Johnson, who was black, and the result according to The NY Times, and the book Unforgivable Blackness, was a lucky draw. There was no re-match. Joe Jeanette said when Johnson became champion he forgot his old friends, and drew the color line against his own people! This is straight from Jeannette who was there!

Gunboat Smith and Willard were white. Smith dropped Johnson in a four round exhibition match and Johnson’’s manager stopped the match when Johnson was down and dazed. This happened in 1909 while Johnson was champion.

There is no question that Johnson avoided the best black challengers while champion. He fought one black fighter, and the match was a controversial draw. He avoided Langford like the plague while champion even though he had lucrative offers to fight him on several occasions.

1 ) In 1914 the NSC offered Johnson $30,000, to face Langford. Johnson called the offer "ridiculous" and rejected it. (Townsville Daily Bulletin, 17th Feb 1914)

2 )French promoter Theodore Vienne says he offered Johnson $25,000 and then $30,000 to meet Langford in Paris. Johnson turned him down. Johnson's continual refusal to meet the best challengers led to the French Boxing Federation stripping him of the title (Winnipeg Tribune, 27th Dec 1913)

3 ) McIntosh made a series of offers to Johnson: $60,000 to fight Langford, McVey and Jeannette in Australia (NYT 9 Dec 1912); $30,000 for an unnamed opponent that the author presumes to be Langford (NYT 26th June 1912); $40,000 for Langford and McVey with $5000 expenses and a $10,000 forfeit (NYT 9th August 1912). Then there was a reported $100,000 to fight Langford and Jeannette in Australia and Flynn in Paris (NYT Oct 12 1912)

[GhostofDempsey]

Johnson also signed an agreement to fight Langford in 1909 and then reneged on the agreement and even lied about it. There is an article that speaks in more detail about this.

[ron davis]

Langford vs. Lang, didn't anybody mention they weren't fighting with six ounce gloves? Looks like 16 ounce.

[OctoberRed]

Langford vs. Lane, didn't anybody mention they weren't fighting with six ounce gloves? Looks like 16 ounce.

^^^^^^

[QueensburyRules]

- -As far as SAMs efficacy, from the time they fought until JJ was KOed by Willard, Sam compiled a record in that time frame better than JJ career record, and Jeannette not far behind.

In short, the champ in any division ain't always the best of that division. Just think Patterson while Liston was fighting as one ex

[ron davis]

You're right the Champs in many cases are not Champions

Don't judge any Champion by how many fights they had and won. It's who they fought that counts. Henry Armstrong for example fought 150 opponents, many of them ( bums) four and five times and naturally (embellishing) building up his record. It's who you beat that counts. There were two number one contenders, he wouldn't fight for any amount of money.

[GhostofDempsey]

Don't judge any Champion by how many fights they had and won. It's who they fought that counts. Henry Armstrong for example fought 150 opponents, many of them ( bums) four and five times and naturally (embellishing) building up his record. It's who you beat that counts. There were two number one contenders, he wouldn't fight for any amount of money.

Correct. Johnson gets all the glory for being the first black champion and his brash antics. But he was in no way a great fighter. His best wins were much smaller fighters or washed up ones. Or when he caught Langford, McVea amd Jeannette very young and much smaller. He drew the color line on his own race while champion with one exception, and that was controversial.