Why Jack Johnson is Not as Great as You We’re Told

[Dr. Z]

Originally posted by Ivich View Post
I've adressed the points on other forums literally dozens of times but haters like you and G O Dempsey don't want to hear it.You both just want to unload your venom on Johnson
Now I'll answer your lies, not for you two bigots but for anyone who might be interested in the real facts.
Fact. Neither Johnson or O Brien [ not O Brein] weighed in for their 6rds no decision bout.
This was Johnson's 1 st defence of his title,in the 5 months since winning his ttile Johnson had been partying hard.. Johnson knowing O Brien had no punch and that therefore he was in no danger of losing his title in a 6 rounds no decision bout, took the opportunity to come in overweight and untrained.He was at a party the night before the fight.Entering the ring he was described as fat.O Brien as in terrific shape.
Any genuine posters wishing to know details can pm me.You two clowns ignore facts so there is no point in presenting them to you.Here is the Box Rec brief summary.

"Three or four times during the mix-ups, O'Brien was roughed to the floor, and once he got tangled in the ropes." (Philadelphia Inquirer). The Philadelphia Inquirer scored for Johnson. Wilkes-Barre Times Leader had O'Brien winning three rounds, with two even, and 5th round to Johnson (same report was printed in NY Sun and Washington Herald). The NY Times ruled it a draw. Trenton Times reported that the referee stated he thought O'Brien the winner by a shade. The Sports editor of the Philadelphia Inquirer in May 23 issue wrote: "A half dozen writers, for instance, gave Johnson the credit of having won the bout, but no two of them agreed as to the distance by which he won, and if you read all these accounts you must have come to the conclusion that he won at any distance from a whisker to a city block. And it was the same with the able gentlemen who espoused the O'Brien cause. Some declared that he won all the way, and that but for his willingness to take the initiative there would have been no milling at all, while others gave him the decision solely for the splendid showing he made against such a tremendous physical handicap." The Philadelphia Item stated that O'Brien soundly out-boxed Johnson. All-in-all, it seems that the best choice would be to show it as a draw. It must be borne in mind that
1.Johnson was boxing in O Brien's home town.
2.O Brien was white,Johnson black.
3. A clever light heavyweight, O Brien was the 175lbs champion ,can make a heavyweight look less than brilliant in a 6 rounder especially if that heavyweight has not taken the fight seriously and come in over weight ,and out of shape,[Johnson was described as breathing heavily as early as the end of the first round,]and the light heavyweight contents himself with back pedalling all night and makes no serious effort to make the fight.
Jim Jeffries was asked about the fight the next day he said he wasnt surprised that O Brien went the distance.as he was known as a clever defensive boxer and such a fighter could make any man look bad for 6 rounds.
There was no demand for another fight between the two as even the Philadelphia papers conceded.
I think this puts things into perspective.
It should be noted that O Brien could never master Tommy Burns and Johnson toyed with Burns before stopping him . O Brien was also twice ko'd by Ketchel,Johnson toyed with Ketchel before knocking him out.

Jim Johnson.
The champion was 35 years old and had not fought for a year and a half.
The champ broke a bone in his arm in the 3rd round,until then he was described as toying with his opponent.Instead of quitting as Harry Wills did with a similar injury against Battling JIm, Johnson continued to fight through the pain ,the ten rounder developed into a maul the champ fighting one handed and the challenger unable to get the better of even a one handed version of Jack Johnson.The fight was ruled a draw and nobody protested it.
The Evening World did not have a reporter present at the fight thue relied on an AP report.
Mendoza once tried to claim it was a scheduled 20 rounder that was shortened to 10 rounds to save Johnson's title but a very good poster posted the original bill showing that it was always scheduled for 10 rounds,whereupon Mendoza quietly folded his tent and crept away.
Johnson'a style would not work against bigger men such as Willard and Battling Jim?
Against Willard the 37 years old Johnson was in front after 25 round and the referee stated had he been called upon to render a decision after 20 rounds he would have unhesitatingly have awarded the fight to Johnson. So what exactly about his style didnt work against the giant?

You raised the issue of Free Masonry NOT ME and you did so in an attempt to discredit me.
Stating they were "devil worshippers [you ****ed up there calling them devil worriers]lol and Kid Fiddlers
When I produced a list of former masons including many Presidents,Kings ,Prime Ministers etc you realised your error and dropped it!
Now you ,who are not a Mason ,and have no inside knowledge of it, say that it is a pyramid scheme and that I am of the low order,"a worker ant"

1.Explain how this "pyramid scheme," works?

Careful how you answer the following two questions
As I am a Mason
Am I a devil worshipper?
Am I a *****phile?



" Two Blacks, fighting for the heavyweight title would not draw flies " Tex Rickard.

"There is no coin to be made from all Black heavyweight title fight." Barney Curley.

After his 6 rds no dec with Johnson, O Brien stated," many felt I was at least his equal in cleverness, but I think over a longer distance he would beat me".

So may lies, omitted of facts and untrue statements. I don't know where to being.

First off nice try O'brien was not 175 pounds he was 162.5 pounds. Nice of you to lie and inflated the weights as if it benefits Johnson you bigoted and lying sack.

Secondly Jim Battling likely won the match, and you don't know when he hurt the arm at all. It likely happened when he Jack fell down on it during the last round. You should agree that these two don't with rate with Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette or Sam Langford form 1909-1914! Men Johnson flat out ducked them and don't tell us he could not have fought them in France, the UK or Australia. If two back men won't draw as you love to take that quote and post is anywhere you can , how did Johnson vs Johnson happen?! They were two back men, right? Would any lineal champion struggle and draw as much with opponents like this? And get stung by Ross and floored by Ketchel. Please them and name them. Yet another open challenge that will go un-anaswered by you. We both know why!

Thirdly the Jim Battling Johnson vs Jack Johnson was listed as 20 rounds by the cyber boxing zone, but to admit such a thing by you is...well above you!

Yes I am very familiar with how a prymid scheme works. Thank you very much. It involves money, secrecy, and kick up to the higher levels in case you don't know. Be sure to pay your dues!

Yes- the Catholic church along with others in the know say they are devil worshippers. Argue with them. Yes--members of some members free masonry are pedohiples, at least the one I know was accused of child **** incident. And the numerous symbols which are everywhere in the Lodge you just can't miss. Ask yourself ( I'm talking to the readers not you ) why this is so, why only members will attend secret meetings and why are they forbidden to talk about it . Hmmmmm.... You can speak up at any time.But you won't.

Do not AUSSME what I know either, I was actually invited to join the masons, probably because I do well in business and the man running them, their lodge leader was into some stuff. I refused the offer by the way.

[GhostofDempsey]

So may lies, omitted of facts and untrue statements. I don't know where to being.

First off nice try O'brien was not 175 pounds he was 162.5 pounds. Nice of you to lie and inflated the weights as if it benefits Johnson you bigoted and lying sack.

Secondly Jim Battling likely won the match, and you don't know when he hurt the arm at all. It likely happened when he Jack fell down on it during the last round. You should agree that these two don't with rate with Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette or Sam Langford form 1909-1914! Men Johnson flat out ducked them and don't tell us he could not have fought them in France, the UK or Australia. If two back men won't draw as you love to take that quote and post is anywhere you can , how did Johnson vs Johnson happen?! They were two back men, right? Would any lineal champion struggle and draw as much with opponents like this? And get stung by Ross and floored by Ketchel. Please them and name them. Yet another open challenge that will go un-anaswered by you. We both know why!

Thirdly the Jim Battling Johnson vs Jack Johnson was listed as 20 rounds by the cyber boxing zone, but to admit such a thing by you is...well above you!

Yes I am very familiar with how a prymid scheme works. Thank you very much. It involves money, secrecy, and kick up to the higher levels in case you don't know. Be sure to pay your dues!

Yes- the Catholic church along with others in the know say they are devil worshippers. Argue with them. Yes--members of some members free masonry are pedohiples, at least the one I know was accused of child **** incident. And the numerous symbols which are everywhere in the Lodge you just can't miss. Ask yourself ( I'm talking to the readers not you ) why this is so, why only members will attend secret meetings and why are they forbidden to talk about it . Hmmmmm.... You can speak up at any time/

Do not AUSSME what I know either, I was actually invited to join the masons, probably because I do well in business and the man running them, their lodge leader was into some stuff. I refused the offer by the way.

It is widely acknowledged that Johnson's shoulder was injured during his fight with Battling Jim. Johnson's manager tried to blame it on a wrestling match he had earlier that week, but other accounts say it was likely injured in the 3rd round. Fans were booing the fight for lack of activity and were demanding refunds as they walked out. They actually stopped the fight at ten rounds due to Johnson's injury (should have been a stoppage loss), but as you stated, it was originally scheduled for 20 rounds.

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n31630217]

Extract from and interview between La Boxe the leading French boxing publication and James W Coffroth in1911 one of the worlds leading promoters of that era.
Coffroth." Only a white challenger will draw the crowds,against Jack Johnson.
It would be impossible in the USA to match Jack Johnson against one of his black challengers,like Sam Langford or Joe Jeannette.
It would be a great fight,the two negroes would not miss the opportunity to inflict the necessary and sufficient hiding that we would be entitled to expect of them .
But the problem in that ,in America,they would not stand a chance of success.
Why?
For the only reason that the Blacks are hated in America,they would not stand a chance of success.
A fight that would put two of them face to face would not attract big crowds."

" Two Blacks, fighting for the heavyweight title would not draw flies " Tex Rickard.

"There is no coin to be made from all Black heavyweight title fight." Barney Curley.

After his 6 rds no dec with Johnson, O Brien stated," many felt I was at least his equal in cleverness ,though I feel he would beat me over a longer distance.

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n31630596]

Extract from and interview between La Boxe the leading French boxing publication and James W Coffroth in1911 one of the worlds leading promoters of that era.
Coffroth." Only a white challenger will draw the crowds,against Jack Johnson.
It would be impossible in the USA to match Jack Johnson against one of his black challengers,like Sam Langford or Joe Jeannette.
It would be a great fight,the two negroes would not miss the opportunity to inflict the necessary and sufficient hiding that we would be entitled to expect of them .
But the problem in that ,in America,they would not stand a chance of success.
Why?
For the only reason that the Blacks are hated in America,they would not stand a chance of success.
A fight that would put two of them face to face would not attract big crowds."

" Two Blacks, fighting for the heavyweight title would not draw flies " Tex Rickard.

"There is no coin to be made from all Black heavyweight title fight." Barney Curley.

After his 6 rds no dec with Johnson, O Brien stated," many felt I was at least his equal in cleverness ,though I feel he would beat me over a longer distance.

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n31630603]

To Mr Iliterate
O Brien was the light heavyweight champion ie the 175lbs champion.I have never said or implied that O Brien weighed 175lbs.in fact many many times I have stated that neither man weighed in!

The Catholic Church does NOT regard Free Masons as Devil Worshippers,that is total BS!


Lodges do not have," a man running them."
You are totally ignorant of Free Masonry, and its laughable seeing you try and pretend other wise .

The 10rounds contest between Battling Jim and Jack Johnson ,which you once tried to claim was originally scheduled for 20 rounds and shortened to 10 to save the champions title ,until Matt Donnellon, historian, and author posted the original bill advertising the fight as for 10rounds, was a boring bout due to the Champions broken arm .

• The December 20, 1913, edition of the Saskatoon Phoenix (Saskatoon, Canada) stated:

"Jack Johnson, the heavyweight champion, and Battling Jim Johnson, another colored pugilist, of Galveston, Texas, met in a ten-round contest here to-night, which ended in a draw. The spectators loudly protested throughout that the men were not fighting, and demanded their money back. Many of them left the hall. The organizers of the fight explained the fiasco by asserting that Jack Johnson's left arm was broken in the third round. There is no confirmation of a report that Jack Johnson had been stabbed, and no evidence at the ringside of such an accident. During the first three rounds he was obviously playing with his opponent. After that it was observed that he was only using his right hand. When the fight was over he complained that his arm had been injured. Doctors who made an examination certified to a slight fracture of the radius of the left arm. The general opinion is that his arm was injured in a wrestling match early in the week, and that a blow to-night caused the fracture of the bone."


Reports state that Jack used both arms freely until after the 3rd rd,from then on it was remarked on that he only freely used one arm the right.

Only a phobic hater like you would find anything wrong with a 35 years old, out of the ring for a year and a half , performance, by an out of shape champion, yet unreservedly defend and excuse Vitali Klitschko for quitting with a torn rotator cuff against much smaller, behind on the cards Chris Byrd!

The quotes from3 leading fight promoters of the times stated promoting the fight in the USA would not be viable.

Naturally you, being only semi literate ,missed that entirely.

Mendoza I despise you, I despised you on Classic for the lying bet welching, ducker of a fight that you instigated and I accepted , POS that you were then and I despise you now for the same POS that you are now.

[Dr. Z]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n31630624][QUOTE=Ivich;n31630603]

To Mr Iliterate
O Brien was the light heavyweight champion ie the 175lbs champion.I have never said or implied that O Brien weighed 175lbs.in fact many many times I have stated that neither man weighed in!

The Catholic Church does NOT regard Free Masons as Devil Worshippers,that is total BS!


Lodges do not have," a man running them."
You are totally ignorant of Free Masonry, and its laughable seeing you try and pretend other wise .

The 10rounds contest between Battling Jim and Jack Johnson ,which you once tried to claim was originally scheduled for 20 rounds and shortened to 10 to save the champions title ,until Matt Donnellon, historian, and author posted the original bill advertising the fight as for 10rounds, was a boring bout due to the Champions broken arm .

• The December 20, 1913, edition of the Saskatoon Phoenix (Saskatoon, Canada) stated:

"Jack Johnson, the heavyweight champion, and Battling Jim Johnson, another colored pugilist, of Galveston, Texas, met in a ten-round contest here to-night, which ended in a draw. The spectators loudly protested throughout that the men were not fighting, and demanded their money back. Many of them left the hall. The organizers of the fight explained the fiasco by asserting that Jack Johnson's left arm was broken in the third round. There is no confirmation of a report that Jack Johnson had been stabbed, and no evidence at the ringside of such an accident. During the first three rounds he was obviously playing with his opponent. After that it was observed that he was only using his right hand. When the fight was over he complained that his arm had been injured. Doctors who made an examination certified to a slight fracture of the radius of the left arm. The general opinion is that his arm was injured in a wrestling match early in the week, and that a blow to-night caused the fracture of the bone."


Reports state that Jack used both arms freely until after the 3rd rd,from then on it was remarked on that he only freely used one arm the right.

Only a phobic hater like you would find anything wrong with a 35 years old, out of the ring for a year and a half , performance, by an out of shape champion, yet unreservedly defend and excuse Vitali Klitschko for quitting with a torn rotator cuff against much smaller, behind on the cards Chris Byrd!

The quotes from3 leading fight promoters of the times stated promoting the fight in the USA would not be viable.

Naturally you, being only semi literate ,missed that entirely.

Mendoza I despise you, I despised you on Classic for the lying bet welching, ducker of a fight that you instigated and I accepted , POS that you were then and I despise you now for the same POS that you are now.[/QUOTE

>>>Dr. Z says: So may lies, omitted of facts and untrue statements. I don't know where to being.

First off nice try O'brien was not 175 pounds he was 162.5 pounds. Nice of you to lie and inflated the weights as if it benefits Johnson you bigoted and lying sack.

Secondly Jim Battling likely won the match, and you don't know when he hurt the arm at all. It likely happened when he Jack fell down on it during the last round. You should agree that these two don't with rate with Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette or Sam Langford form 1909-1914! Men Johnson flat out ducked them and don't tell us he could not have fought them in France, the UK or Australia. If two back men won't draw as you love to take that quote and post is anywhere you can , how did Johnson vs Johnson happen?! They were two back men, right? Would any lineal champion struggle and draw as much with opponents like this? And get stung by Ross and floored by Ketchel. Please them and name them. Yet another open challenge that will go un-anaswered by you. We both know why!

Thirdly the Jim Battling Johnson vs Jack Johnson was listed as 20 rounds by the cyber boxing zone, but to admit such a thing by you is...well above you!

Yes I am very familiar with how a prymid scheme works. Thank you very much. It involves money, secrecy, and kick up to the higher levels in case you don't know. Be sure to pay your dues!

Yes- the Catholic church along with others in the know say they are devil worshippers. Argue with them. Yes--members of some members free masonry are pedohiples, at least the one I know was accused of child M*****g incident. And the numerous symbols which are everywhere in the Lodge you just can't miss. Ask yourself ( I'm talking to the readers not you ) why this is so, why only members will attend secret meetings and why are they forbidden to talk about it . Hmmmmm.... You can speak up at any time.But you won't.

Do not AUSSME what I know either, I was actually invited to join the masons, probably because I do well in business and the man running them, their lodge leader was into some stuff. I refused the offer by the way.


>>> Liar, It was years later when Matt mentored that, not that it matters in your time line.

• A cabled article printed in the Evening World (New York City) stated:

Jack Johnson barely missed losing his heavyweight championship in a ten round bout here last night. Jeffries' conqueror met Battling Jim Johnson, a big negro from Memphis Tenn. and barely lasted through the final round. He was tottering and groggy at the finish. A few rounds more and he might have been knocked out. . . . In the last minute of the fight the Memphis negro rushed Johnson to the ropes and in a mixup both went to the floor, with Jack's arm around Jim's waist. Both were on their feet quickly but Jack looked exhausted just as the final bell rang. It is possible that Jack hurt his arm in the fall to the floor. . . . In the seventh round the Memphis man succeeded in breaking down Jack's guard and three times after landing on the body grazed Jack's jaw with terrific uppercuts


https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rdtPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5lMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=39 34,6066264&dq=jack+johnson+international+boxing+un ion&hl=en

You should read the NY times descrpiton of the match!

You completely skipped my reply to your questions! Shocking. I know why.

I know O'brien weighed for the Johnson fight was around 162.5 for the fight yet the way you write it is dishonest. 175. Bet welcher like this time we wagered on whether Fitzsimmons vs. Ruhlin was filmed? You lose. Pay up, you little lying welsher! The bet was if it was filmed at all was no distinctions were made about how or when! Pay up!

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0302719/?ref_=nm_flmg_slf_6

By the way stop you lying old man, you had no intention of showing up. I told you to pick a ring may times as its the only place I know where assault is allowed. You did nothing and went missing for weeks..the afterward you claim to BS surgery ( yeah right ) and say ok I'll meet you in the Airport which was the one place I said I would avoid trouble.Could it have been for v****l surgery? Of course when I arrived on your island have been there for a week and was not logging into the forum, only then did you deem it safe to reappear and said meet me at the airpot. All facts in the forum. Your lie, have no honor and make things up about me and others. You can add bet welsher to the mix, and lord knows what else. Tony, MCvey, Totnto62, Ivich and other names you have used.

You will go to your grave as such. As stated the more you lie, the more I will expose you for what you are.

Oh I almost forget you should read this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry

[QueensburyRules]

Extract from and interview between La Boxe the leading French boxing publication and James W Coffroth in1911 one of the worlds leading promoters of that era.
Coffroth." Only a white challenger will draw the crowds,against Jack Johnson.
It would be impossible in the USA to match Jack Johnson against one of his black challengers,like Sam Langford or Joe Jeannette.
It would be a great fight,the two negroes would not miss the opportunity to inflict the necessary and sufficient hiding that we would be entitled to expect of them .
But the problem in that ,in America,they would not stand a chance of success.
Why?
For the only reason that the Blacks are hated in America,they would not stand a chance of success.
A fight that would put two of them face to face would not attract big crowds."

" Two Blacks, fighting for the heavyweight title would not draw flies " Tex Rickard.

"There is no coin to be made from all Black heavyweight title fight." Barney Curley.

After his 6 rds no dec with Johnson, O Brien stated," many felt I was at least his equal in cleverness, but I think over a longer distance he would beat me".

- - Did a monkey write this?

Sam and Joe were making enough fighting each other to travel overseas, something beyond most Euros and Americans. Sure don't sound like hate to me.

Did Tex ever promote an all black title fight?

What?

Never?

Yet all black colored title fights were very popular?

Impossible(exclaimed in pidgin French dialect!)

[Ivich]

- - Did a monkey write this?

Sam and Joe were making enough fighting each other to travel overseas, something beyond most Euros and Americans. Sure don't sound like hate to me.

Did Tex ever promote an all black title fight?

What?

Never?

Yet all black colored title fights were very popular?

Impossible(exclaimed in pidgin French dialect!)

Listen you ****** ****! The quote clearly stated."IN THE USA" It also stated TWO BLACKS FIGHTING FOR THE HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE!
Langford and Jeannete fought in France because they couldnt draw a big gate in the US! The same reason Langford and McVey fought in Australia!
Langford's biggest purse was for fighting Iron Hague in London.
Do you even know who Hague was? There is ****** and then there is you!
God Save Us From Morons!

[QueensburyRules]

Listen you ****** ****! The quote clearly stated."IN THE USA" It also stated TWO BLACKS FIGHTING FOR THE HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE!
Langford and Jeannete fought in France because they couldnt draw a big gate in the US! The same reason Langford and McVey fought in Australia!
Langford's biggest purse was for fighting Iron Hague in London.
Do you even know who Hague was? There is ****** and then there is you!
God Save Us From Morons!

- - No, Sam and Joe fought for JJohnson's stripped title because they was more popular than the disreputable JJ.

Sam would've never fought in England or France had he not been popular and highly respected in the US.

Dempsey was the most popular and telegenic fighter of his day by a humongous margin, yet never fought in England or France.

Lewie fought his biggest fights in America because he weren't popular in England, but he also ducked his biggest fight in America.

AJ kicked the disreputable Blubber out of England and Ireland to America where he whooped Deyonce who could never draw flies, and bingo, he became popular in his last fight in England.

U don't appear to be very popular here, but U usually put up a decent squawk.

[Ivich]

- - No, Sam and Joe fought for JJohnson's stripped title because they was more popular than the disreputable JJ.

Sam would've never fought in England or France had he not been popular and highly respected in the US.

Dempsey was the most popular and telegenic fighter of his day by a humongous margin, yet never fought in England or France.

Lewie fought his biggest fights in America because he weren't popular in England, but he also ducked his biggest fight in America.

AJ kicked the disreputable Blubber out of England and Ireland to America where he whooped Deyonce who could never draw flies, and bingo, he became popular in his last fight in England.

U don't appear to be very popular here, but U usually put up a decent squawk.

The French Federation stripped Johnson and reinstated him3 weeks later.

Before Burns how many heavyweight champions defended their MOQ title outside the US?
How many heavyweight title fights were held outside the US until recent times? You get schooled time and again,ignore it and go of on a tangent that has zero relevance to the original subject ,
"Langford was popular and highly respected?"
Is that why his purse for fighting Flynn was$700,whilst Flynn got $2,500?
Is that why his purse for fighting Ketchel was$5000 and Ketchel got an estimated $12,000[50% of the gross gate ]?
You don't know what the **** you're talking about do you?

I've no wish to be popular with you Dr Z or Ghost Of Desperation,all the time you dislike me and my content I'm happy!
When you start agreeing with me I know I'm in trouble!