The "Phantom Punch."

[johnbook]

Liston is definitely playing the part. I don't think he saw the punch coming, and he's definitely not the fighter he'd been a decade before. I won't dispute any of that. But he looks like he's acting when he hits the mat.

I've said the knock down was genuine.But not not the KO.
But no fix. Just Liston not wanting to get up with fast Ali standing over him because Walcott was inept and didn't get Ali to a neutral corner.

Can you blame Liston?
After viewing the film and given clear inept refereeing, this fight could have been reversed to a no decision. But I guess Liston's people did not petition.

[Marchegiano]

Eh?


Phantoms are not punches the audience can't see. They are punches the opponent can't see. At least that's the way it was taught to me when I was younger.

Take the Phantom Overhead for example. It's a very very obvious punch and from the outside. it looks like, let's use Marciano because he covered the biggest distance, looks like Marciano is jumping across the ring while a very good mover like Walcott or Charles just stands there and waits on him and gets popped.

People want to be able to explain away Charles just standing there as old, slower reflexes, things of that sort which I'll not dispute but it isn't often you read in addition to Charles being much more experienced than Marciano he was also anticipating a different punch. Ezzard had counters and he wasn't wrong as often as you may remember, he nearly won. Marciano hits men with punches that look obvious from the outside because on the inside of the ring it looks different. He plays with line of sight, loads, and expectations.

Dip right, wing a right hook, let them react, rinse and repeat until they are comfortable with this particular dip being a tell for a right hook. Dip right, wing an overhead instead of hook, not overhand but entirely over the head in an ark that comes back down to the head. If they reacted to the right hook they can not see the right overhead. If they noticed the change it would be very difficult for them to keep watch on both the right overhead and the left hook.

Those huge winging "looping overhand rights" Marciano leaped across the ring to land against good pivot artists are not as obvious as the untrained eye may perceive and phantoms have nothing to do with the audience's ability to see the punch.

Some of y'all're some knowledgeable folk here and I don't mean to argue with you. I just mean to share how I was taught about phantoms. It would be very easy for me to accept I'm very wrong.

[johnbook]

As I noted above it is well known that that punch is called the phantom punch because it has been, and still is being claimed that there was no punch. That is in recent books such as by Kram and by others.

[Ben Bolt]

But even though it's a real punch, it's believed Liston stayed down because the mob guys and possibly Liston himself, bet on a first round knockout win by Ali, leading to a great financial windfall for all of them.

Who knows what's true? It's a case of what we believe in, I guess.

I believe in Liston's wife: Sonny wasn't in top shape (that we know; he was far better conditioned before their scheduled, but postponed, rematch in 1964), and suffered of depression. Realizing he couldn't win this (the phantom punch made it clear?), he stopped bothering. After all, no one liked him.

[OctoberRed]

Who knows what's true? It's a case of what we believe in, I guess.

I believe in Liston's wife: Sonny wasn't in top shape (that we know; he was far better conditioned before their scheduled, but postponed, rematch in 1964), and suffered of depression. Realizing he couldn't win this (the phantom punch made it clear?), he stopped bothering. After all, no one liked him.

I agree with Ben on this.

[BigBadBenn]

One of the most blatantly fixed fights ever. Seems to me the effect of that punch caught both off guard because it wasnt in the script and didnt look hard enough to hurt Liston either, hence the confusion that followed

[HOUDINI563]

Those at ringside who actually saw the punch land saw a KO blow. Read the SI article right after the fight. It’s online if you google it. Those people included Torres, Patterson, Damato as well as the SI writer.

[johnbook]

But the point is everyone can easily see it on youtube and see Liston's head after impact.
Walcott did a terrible job and Sonny was afraid to get up with Ali on top of him.

Many fights are or have been fixed. This wasn't one of them.

[HOUDINI563]

It was not a fix. I don’t see any evidence Liston was afraid to get up.

[QueensburyRules]

It was not a fix. I don’t see any evidence Liston was afraid to get up.

--- I see no evidence to prove you ain't fixed.

Ali called it the anchor punch taught to him by StepinFetchit, a punch I routinely practice in my heavy bag workouts, a sharp counter right after Sonny swings hisself off balance with a left.

Prob being Ali in reverse off balance punching downward with no leverage.

NOT A KO PUNCH, but quick enough to be labeled phantom for the bantam boxing experts. See Vitali vs Solis phantom punch as a more definitive conclusion...