How would you tell Joe Louis to fight a prime Foreman

[Mr.MojoRisin']

I read that Foreman was worked over in sparring by Jerry Quarry. Don't know how true that is but if it is then Louis would be a nightmare because he could do everything Quarry could do plus hit harder. And Louis was only slightly larger than Quarry prime for prime.

I wouldn't put too much stock into that as sparring is different from an actual fight but it does indicate that Quarry would have at least some success against Foreman.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

You know you would chew out any of the more modern heavyweights if they ever suffered something as embarrassing as getting knocked down by this character, with all due respect:



190lb Braddock a punch with a 34% on his record knocked him down. Max Schmeling another 190lber made him chicken dance, knocked him down and later out. I don't recall Marciano really hitting Joe at will untill the last round where Rocky ended it very quickly after landing that nice left hook. Louis had a lot of heart and recovery but chin? Too much evidence to refute that. I'm probably leaving out other knockdowns he suffered in his career too.

I'm not trying to bash Louis, but if you really compare his opponents capabilities to that of Foreman who was possibly the most powerful and hardest hitting HW of all time it comes out that dramatic.

Louis doesn't do well in head to head matchups like this, his greatness relies on his resume/longevity.

Galento was a pretty good fighter. Not close to an atg but definitely a top fighter of the era. Everyone who knows a thing or two about classic boxing recognizes this.

Braddock and Schmeling both had terrific right hands. Schmelings was a monster of a right. Max Baer had nothing but praise for Braddock's right. Tell me, do you do much research into these fighters you dismiss as "190 lbrs" as if it's a bad thing to be 190 lbs.

Marciano was on Louis from the opening bell. He hit Louis with plenty of hard punches. He doesn't have to "hit him at will" to be able to land a hard punch worthy of knocking him down. Galento wasn't hitting Louis at will either, it was a beautifully timed counter left hook.

I'm almost certain that your knowledge on these fighters isn't up to par. I'm not really interested in getting into any sort of dialogue with you because you seem to be pretty prone to react with hostility when you come across a post you disagree with. Big bad internet tough guy I guess.

Louis doesn't do well in match ups like this? You realize he's a fighter right? He was an expert in the art of boxing. The way you modernistas act it's as if he was just some celebrity of the time who we fantasize about what it would be like if he put on the gloves.

Just because I don't call Louis chinny because he was knocked down very briefly by a hard hitting ko artist doesn't mean I'm letting my bias get in the way. Louis would have clobbered Galento had he not kept him in the fight for so long.

[juggernaut666]

The common sense advice would be dont engage and tie up until mid rounds .

After that Foreman would have slowed and lost a little focus .

After that its up too Louis to win bc you can only give so much advice to defeat a charging power puncher who has length over you and Louis was very hittable and was not very elusive in large distances with his footwork .

I dont think Louis wins this fight but if he can survive 5 rnds at least Foreman gets sloppy as the fight goes longer which COULD give Louis more openings .

[BKM-]

Galento was a pretty good fighter. Not close to an atg but definitely a top fighter of the era. Everyone who knows a thing or two about classic boxing recognizes this.

Braddock and Schmeling both had terrific right hands. Schmelings was a monster of a right. Max Baer had nothing but praise for Braddock's right. Tell me, do you do much research into these fighters you dismiss as "190 lbrs" as if it's a bad thing to be 190 lbs.

It's a bad thing to be 190lbs(or to get knocked down by a joke like Galento no matter how much you try to build him up) when you're compared to prime George Foreman, which is what this thread is about.

Weight classes exist for a good reason and if we are to evaluate a head to head matchup like this, it's crucial to point out how often Louis got knocked down by much weaker punching, smaller and lighter men than Foreman. Louis even got hurt by a pure Light Heavyweight in Billy Conn, and you don't think that's significant when we're speculating on how Louis would take punches from the hardest hitting heavyweight of all time?

I think you forgot the whole purpose of this thread and got into your usual primadonna pro-old timer narrative, which btw is also unfounded because my case is being made for Foreman who foughts in the 60s and 70s, hardly a "modernista" is it?

Marciano was on Louis from the opening bell. He hit Louis with plenty of hard punches. He doesn't have to "hit him at will" to be able to land a hard punch worthy of knocking him down. Galento wasn't hitting Louis at will either, it was a beautifully timed counter left hook.

Louis didn't have a good chin, he had good recovery and heart. There is no shame in admitting that.

His legacy is pretty set because of his overall accomplishments, I rate him pretty highly despite the weaker era he fought in. But head to head matchups? I think he does terribly against the hard hitters due to his chin, and he doesn't do well against the fleet footed movers like Ali and Holmes etc. I know it's always been a 'sin' to tell the truth about certain fighters but I've been doing it for over 12 years here.

I'm almost certain that your knowledge on these fighters isn't up to par. I'm not really interested in getting into any sort of dialogue with you because you seem to be pretty prone to react with hostility when you come across a post you disagree with. Big bad internet tough guy I guess.

Projection.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

It's a bad thing to be 190lbs(or to get knocked down by a joke like Galento no matter how much you try to build him up) when you're compared to prime George Foreman, which is what this thread is about.

Weight doesn't matter when those guys had skills and could hit like a mule. They were big enough where they could handle heavyweights in the 200s. Do you think George Foreman had some out of this world power that nobody ever came close to? Despite what's been shoveled down your throat in the form of dogma, hard hitting heavyweights tend to hit with the same level of power. It's other things that separate them like skills, strategy, technique, style, etc that get them early kos or late kos or whatever.

You don't give big heavyweights enough credit. They knock smaller great fighters out with skill and power. Not 10 lbs of flesh.

This may come as a complete shock to you but guys like Foreman, Shavers, Dempsey, Marciano, and Tyson all could hit just as hard as guys like Joshua, Wilder, and Ortiz. Gassiev, a cruiserweight, hits with the same level of power as heavyweights. Listen to the testimony of Golovkin's sparring partners. They say he hits just as hard if not harder than heavyweights! That he hits harder than Povetkin.

Weight classes exist for a good reason and if we are to evaluate a head to head matchup like this, it's crucial to point out how often Louis got knocked down by much weaker punching, smaller and lighter men than Foreman. Louis even got hurt by a pure Light Heavyweight in Billy Conn, and you don't think that's significant when we're speculating on how Louis would take punches from the hardest hitting heavyweight of all time?

The heavyweight division is an unlimited division. Weight class has nothing to do with it. Let's see who all knocked Louis down:

Schmeling - Known for his pulverising right hand (Louis took flush right hands for 12 rounds)
Braddock - Thundering right hand
Galento - fantastic left hook and tough as nails
Buddy Baer - 49 kos in 53 fights, dude was a huge puncher
Walcott - Louis was past prime and Walcott was a fantastic counterpuncher
Marciano - Louis was 37 and Marciano is a top 10 puncher in the heavyweight division all time

I don't see anything to be embarrassed about. Louis got knocked down by very hard hitters (Half of all the guys who knocked him down are atgs) in his prime when he was fighting every month or two. You seem to have an insistence on calling these guys weak but there is no record of any of their opponents calling them weak as far as I know. You're a classic boxing revisionist.

I think you forgot the whole purpose of this thread and got into your usual primadonna pro-old timer narrative, which btw is also unfounded because my case is being made for Foreman who foughts in the 60s and 70s, hardly a "modernista" is it?

You responded to me, don't get **** confused. You didn't reply to my post giving my take on the match up. You replied to a comment I made on everyone always bringing up Galento as if that's their shining example for why Foreman clobbers Louis. Try to keep up.

It's not unfounded at all. You think modern fighters are better than their predecessors. The more modern they are then the more chance you think they would win. Foreman is more modern than Louis so you think he wins. You don't have to come right out and say it but we all know it. You're posts tell us enough.

Louis didn't have a good chin, he had good recovery and heart. There is no shame in admitting that.

Nobody is saying he had a cast iron jaw but this belief that he was chinny because he got knocked down by guys known for having a great punch is pretty dumb.

Tell me, how come you never say anything about Jimmy Young? or Ali? or Ron Lyle? All were able to knock PRIME Foreman down and none of them were as good of punchers as Joe Louis was. Not even close. Lyle hit hard but he wasn't a Joe Louis level of puncher by any measure.

Also don't forget that Foreman retired first at 28 years old. Only 6 fights after Ali ruined his unbeatable aura which you seem to be hypnotized with. In those 6 fights Foreman was knocked down 3 times. Then he retired. Had he fought on against top fighters like Holmes he would have been dropped some more and probably knocked out by Holmes.

His legacy is pretty set because of his overall accomplishments, I rate him pretty highly despite the weaker era he fought in. But head to head matchups? I think he does terribly against the hard hitters due to his chin, and he doesn't do well against the fleet footed movers like Ali and Holmes etc. I know it's always been a 'sin' to tell the truth about certain fighters but I've been doing it for over 12 years here.

Why are you telling me this? It has nothing to do with the conversation.

Projection.

Lmao I bet you think of yourself as a real intellectual

[BKM-]

This earlier comment looks pretty funny now:

I'm not really interested in getting into any sort of dialogue with you because you seem to be pretty prone to react with hostility when you come across a post you disagree with.

Sounds more like you were waiting for it the whole time.

Weight doesn't matter when those guys had skills and could hit like a mule. They were big enough where they could handle heavyweights in the 200s.

So you think I'm acting like a boxing genius who's never wrong yet you are trying to go against decades if not centuries of millions of people who did in fact think weight matters which is why they created weight classes.

Weight does matter especially in this matchup. You don't think 20-30lbs of muscle matters when Foreman puts his hands on his opponents and makes his fights as physical as possible? And you know that fighters transfer as much as their weight as possible to generate their punching power?

Do you think George Foreman had some out of this world power that nobody ever came close to?

None of Louis' opponents came close to his power, no. I can see from the Schmeling fight what it takes to knock him out, looking at physical durability. And Foreman has more than enough to take him out.

Despite what's been shoveled down your throat in the form of dogma, hard hitting heavyweights tend to hit with the same level of power.

Which even you contradict later on. And no, they don't hit with the same level of power and size matters a lot. I know this goes against your old timer's belief but you're gonna have to deal with it before your time is up.

This may come as a complete shock to you but guys like Foreman, Shavers, Dempsey, Marciano, and Tyson all could hit just as hard as guys like Joshua, Wilder, and Ortiz.

Did I not call Foreman the possibly hardest hitting HW of all time in the very post you're responding to? There goes your narrative. Try to keep up.

Schmeling - Known for his pulverising right hand (Louis took flush right hands for 12 rounds)
Braddock - Thundering right hand
Galento - fantastic left hook and tough as nails
Buddy Baer - 49 kos in 53 fights, dude was a huge puncher
Walcott - Louis was past prime and Walcott was a fantastic counterpuncher
Marciano - Louis was 37 and Marciano is a top 10 puncher in the heavyweight division all time

Braddock was not a hard hitter as his 34% KO percentage shows especially not compared to Foreman.

Schmeling had an accurate right hand, nice shot that could take you out, but nowhere near the power of Foreman. Lol @ pulverising. Why don't you use terms like God-like or earth-shattering too to make these guys look even more impressive.

I mean you would definitely chew out more modern heavyweights if they were hurt or knocked down by this level of power. Galento remains a joke, he didn't have a "fantastic left hook". Dude barely even trained with what he had.

And you ignored Billy Conn rocking Louis. A pure LHW at that. That's more damning than some of those knockdowns.

It's not unfounded at all. You think modern fighters are better than their predecessors. The more modern they are then the more chance you think they would win. Foreman is more modern than Louis so you think he wins. You don't have to come right out and say it but we all know it. You're posts tell us enough.

Projection as you do exactly that for older fighters, the older the era the better you think they were.

For the record I can think of examples where I don't see it this way. For example Jack Johnson, an older era than Louis, I think he would do very well against Foreman I could even see him winning. Because he was extremely strong and skilled in the clinch grappling department due to the old era which still had Greco Roman wrestling skills ingrained into boxing, and I see him doing well at Foreman's range. I could see him suffocate Foreman and stop him late as his conditioning was amazing. Would be a very ugly fight though, but this is where I see early 20th century fighters shine.

But Louis? He looked way too vulnerable to me and there's too much evidence that proves it. Foreman's way too tough a task. But I know, it's considered a sin to admit it here.

Nobody is saying he had a cast iron jaw but this belief that he was chinny because he got knocked down by guys known for having a great punch is pretty dumb.

You once again lose sight of the topic of this thread. We're discussing a hypothetical matchup of Louis vs prime Foreman. Nobody is gonna convince me that a fighter without atleast a very SOLID chin, is gonna beat Foreman. Louis was hurt by a pure LHW, knocked down and out by 190lb men, and even knocked down by bums. That's 3 strikes. Does he have a good enough chin to handle the hardest puncher ever? No. Heart is not enough to overcome this, it wasn't enough for Frazier and others. You can keep getting back up but George will finish you off.

Tell me, how come you never say anything about Jimmy Young? or Ali? or Ron Lyle? All were able to knock PRIME Foreman down and none of them were as good of punchers as Joe Louis was. Not even close. Lyle hit hard but he wasn't a Joe Louis level of puncher by any measure.

Ali and Young used a specific strategy that Louis isn't capable of.

Lyle had the size, power and chin to catch Foreman by surprise early and work on him from there. Louis didn't have that style either. I do think the Lyle fight makes a case for other All Time Greats in H2H matchups against prime Foreman, but Joe isn't one of them.

Why are you telling me this? It has nothing to do with the conversation.

You keep losing sight of what the conversation is about, as I just told you again. Now you seem to think I'm going off-topic when I'm responding to your straw men arguments you brought up. It's up to you if you want to continue this, wether you want to do it politely or in a flaming way I can play your game.

[GGG Gloveking]

I'd show Joe the towel, and comfort him by saying, when things get too tough, I'm throwing this in the ring

[uncle ben]

It's a bad thing to be 190lbs(or to get knocked down by a joke like Galento no matter how much you try to build him up) when you're compared to prime George Foreman, which is what this thread is about.

Weight classes exist for a good reason and if we are to evaluate a head to head matchup like this, it's crucial to point out how often Louis got knocked down by much weaker punching, smaller and lighter men than Foreman. Louis even got hurt by a pure Light Heavyweight in Billy Conn, and you don't think that's significant when we're speculating on how Louis would take punches from the hardest hitting heavyweight of all time?

I think you forgot the whole purpose of this thread and got into your usual primadonna pro-old timer narrative, which btw is also unfounded because my case is being made for Foreman who foughts in the 60s and 70s, hardly a "modernista" is it?



Louis didn't have a good chin, he had good recovery and heart. There is no shame in admitting that.

His legacy is pretty set because of his overall accomplishments, I rate him pretty highly despite the weaker era he fought in. But head to head matchups? I think he does terribly against the hard hitters due to his chin, and he doesn't do well against the fleet footed movers like Ali and Holmes etc. I know it's always been a 'sin' to tell the truth about certain fighters but I've been doing it for over 12 years here.



Projection.

190 pounds is big enough to KO any man of any weight. And after about 175-180, weight plays less of a role in punching power. I mean, Rocky Marciano at 185 pounds hit harder or at least is rated as a harder puncher than 215 pound Larry Holmes or 190 pound Floyd Patterson or 195 pound Ingemar Johannson is rated as a harder puncher than say 210 pound Muhammad Ali. And at 200 pounds, it becomes even less of an issue. A prime 220 pound George Foreman or a 210 pound Earnie Shavers is regarded as a harder hitter than 315 pound Nikolai Valuev.

[BKM-]

190 pounds is big enough to KO any man of any weight. And after about 175-180, weight plays less of a role in punching power. I mean, Rocky Marciano at 185 pounds hit harder or at least is rated as a harder puncher than 215 pound Larry Holmes or 190 pound Floyd Patterson or 195 pound Ingemar Johannson is rated as a harder puncher than say 210 pound Muhammad Ali. And at 200 pounds, it becomes even less of an issue. A prime 220 pound George Foreman or a 210 pound Earnie Shavers is regarded as a harder hitter than 315 pound Nikolai Valuev.

Less of a role, but still a significant role. Also your comparisons don't hold up because you're comparing actual punchers to fighters who weren't punchers in the first place. That closes the gap. And some of the fighters we're analyzing like Braddock and Conn weren't punchers either especially @ HW and compared to George Foreman they're packing even less of a punch.

To go even further in Foreman's favor, he himself fought big men who were some of the hardest punchers ever like Lyle, Frazier, Morrison, Cooney, Briggs and needless to say he showed an incredible chin. Louis would be way in over his head here. He's facing a specimen who can quickly dispatch of him and can take anything he dishes out and keep going(unlike any opponent he faced).

[Mr.MojoRisin']

So you think I'm acting like a boxing genius who's never wrong yet you are trying to go against decades if not centuries of millions of people who did in fact think weight matters which is why they created weight classes.

Weight does matter especially in this matchup. You don't think 20-30lbs of muscle matters when Foreman puts his hands on his opponents and makes his fights as physical as possible? And you know that fighters transfer as much as their weight as possible to generate their punching power?



None of Louis' opponents came close to his power, no. I can see from the Schmeling fight what it takes to knock him out, looking at physical durability. And Foreman has more than enough to take him out.



Which even you contradict later on. And no, they don't hit with the same level of power and size matters a lot. I know this goes against your old timer's belief but you're gonna have to deal with it before your time is up.




Did I not call Foreman the possibly hardest hitting HW of all time in the very post you're responding to? There goes your narrative. Try to keep up.




Braddock was not a hard hitter as his 34% KO percentage shows especially not compared to Foreman.

Schmeling had an accurate right hand, nice shot that could take you out, but nowhere near the power of Foreman. Lol @ pulverising. Why don't you use terms like God-like or earth-shattering too to make these guys look even more impressive.

I mean you would definitely chew out more modern heavyweights if they were hurt or knocked down by this level of power. Galento remains a joke, he didn't have a "fantastic left hook". Dude barely even trained with what he had.

And you ignored Billy Conn rocking Louis. A pure LHW at that. That's more damning than some of those knockdowns.



Projection as you do exactly that for older fighters, the older the era the better you think they were.

For the record I can think of examples where I don't see it this way. For example Jack Johnson, an older era than Louis, I think he would do very well against Foreman I could even see him winning. Because he was extremely strong and skilled in the clinch grappling department due to the old era which still had Greco Roman wrestling skills ingrained into boxing, and I see him doing well at Foreman's range. I could see him suffocate Foreman and stop him late as his conditioning was amazing. Would be a very ugly fight though, but this is where I see early 20th century fighters shine.

But Louis? He looked way too vulnerable to me and there's too much evidence that proves it. Foreman's way too tough a task. But I know, it's considered a sin to admit it here.




You once again lose sight of the topic of this thread. We're discussing a hypothetical matchup of Louis vs prime Foreman. Nobody is gonna convince me that a fighter without atleast a very SOLID chin, is gonna beat Foreman. Louis was hurt by a pure LHW, knocked down and out by 190lb men, and even knocked down by bums. That's 3 strikes. Does he have a good enough chin to handle the hardest puncher ever? No. Heart is not enough to overcome this, it wasn't enough for Frazier and others. You can keep getting back up but George will finish you off.



Ali and Young used a specific strategy that Louis isn't capable of.

Lyle had the size, power and chin to catch Foreman by surprise early and work on him from there. Louis didn't have that style either. I do think the Lyle fight makes a case for other All Time Greats in H2H matchups against prime Foreman, but Joe isn't one of them.



You keep losing sight of what the conversation is about, as I just told you again. Now you seem to think I'm going off-topic when I'm responding to your straw men arguments you brought up. It's up to you if you want to continue this, wether you want to do it politely or in a flaming way I can play your game.

1. No I don't think you're acting like a boxing genius. I think you're acting like someone who falls easy prey to dogma.
2. Weight class has nothing to do with it. This isn't a match up between a middleweight and a heavyweight. This is a match up between two heavyweights. You can't even argue on my level, you did exactly what I knew you would do and deflected then started talking about weight classes when in fact these fighters are in the same weight class.
3. You say millions of people thought weight matters but yet these SAME people thought that weight didn't matter at heavyweight which is why they made the division unlimited.
4. The majority of heavyweight champions won their title from a bigger fighter.
5. Foreman pushed around a bunch of small men. Joe Frazier was 5'10". Not the 6'2 that Louis was. It's not a shoving contest anyway. It's a boxing match. Pushing your opponent out of your range is pretty dumb and wastes energy. That's why nobody really does it.
6. "And you know that fighters transfer as much as their weight as possible to generate their punching power?" Yes. Are you shocked by this information?
7. Marciano had power on Foreman's level so that statement is false.
8. The Schmeling fight is a good indicator of what it would take to knock out an unfocused pre-title Joe Louis. 12 rounds of flush right hands. Something Foreman doesn't have the pacing ability to be capable of. He lasts until maybe the 6th then Louis chins him. Your critical thinking skills are poor.
9. I haven't contradicted myself in the slightest.
10. You said Foreman was the hardest hitting heavyweight and have framed him as some monster who has power that nobody has come close to.
11. Braddock had 26 kos out of 46 wins. The fighters who fought him said he hit hard. You're opinion on the issue is irrelevant.
12. It's honestly really sad to see your bias get in the way of you being impartial here. You shouldn't call yourself a boxing fan because you aren't. Braddock's record is watered down by losses during the great depression. Maybe you heard of it. During his stretch of losses he was malnourished and fighting to earn what little he could during one of if not the worst financial times in American history. You don't take this into account though because that would mean you have to cut Braddock some slack and get off your ass (not literally) for a change and do some real research on a fighter. You're not willing to do this because you don't have any sort of in depth knowledge on the sport.
13. Before my time is up? I'm certain you're older than me you moron. Glad to know that I'm rattling you though.
14. If it can take you out then it doesn't matter if it's as hard as Foreman's.
15. He did have a great left hook. Everyone in the era recognized it and people that pay attention to the sport continue to recognize it. But tell me more about how Foreman will win the fight by shoving Louis. That's what wins fight right? "Well Jim I scored that round to Foreman based upon his terrific and expertly executed shoving. 10-9 Foreman!"
16. It's Joe Louis not superman. Louis got staggered by Conn in the twelfth round but Foreman was full on knocked down by Jimmy Young who had an astounding 20% ko percentage. Numbers aren't looking so much in your favor are they? Lol don't worry they never were.
17. That's not what projection means. Projection is where I say you do something but in reality I do it and you don't. It's not projecting if theoretically I did the exact opposite of what you do. Which I don't. John L Sullivan couldn't box for **** compared to Ali, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Foreman, etc. Boxing peaked in the early 20s then plateaued until the later half of the 70s when it started to decrease in terms of skill.
18. Foreman would beat Johnson's ass like a drum. Johnson never fought anyone that could cut off the ring like Foreman nor could he keep up with Foreman's work rate.
19. The only fight that Louis lost (or he should have) where he was knocked down was against Schmeling, Walcott, and Marciano. He wasn't at his best for ANY of those and he came back to knock Schmeling out in a single round. Knocked Walcott out too.
20. Lyle almost beat Foreman, Morrison beat Foreman, Briggs beat Foreman. All had worse chins than Louis.
21. Ali let Foreman beat his ass for 7 rounds. Louis is capable of that lmfao.
22. Louis was the same size as Foreman he just weighed 15 lbs less. That's nothing to 200+ lb men.
23. What ****ing style do you think Louis had? You keep saying he couldn't fight how Young and Ali did against Foreman which was boxing him. You say he couldn't fight how Lyle did against Foreman which you think was some fast starting surprise attack. Well how did Louis fight? Apparently he couldn't box or punch so how the hell did he win a fight?
24. You keep talking about bull**** I don't care about that has nothing to do with the thread.