Why Does Jack Johnson Get a Pass on Opposition while Marciano Does Not?

[travestyny]

Just because Dempsey said he was drawing the color line doesn't mean that it was his intention to draw the color line. He drew it because Rickard and Kearns told him he wouldn't be fighting any black fighters and most importantly BECAUSE IT PLEASED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Hold up. Wait a second. I just noticed something.

So, it is often stated that Dempsey's first act after winning the title was to draw the color-line. That was in 1919, right? And you're saying that it was not his choice, but only his manager and promoter's choice, right? Ok.

Just noticed the date on Dempsey-Louis' post. Here it says that Dempsey erased the color-line. That was in 1920. Here it is again:

Dempsey flipped-flopped so often on this issue that I could post a half dozen claims both ways.

Ok, so he erased the color line in July 1920. Apparently he had the autonomy to do so.

Then, back to my quotation. Here he is stating that he has drawn the color-line yet again, just like Dempsey-Louis said, waffling back and forth:




It clearly states that he drew the color-line. That was in July 1921.


So how the hell are you to argue that he had no autonomy in deciding to draw the color line when he initially drew the color-line, then decided that there would be no color-line because he needs the money and he will face any challenger, and then goes back on this and says that he will not face any colored man??? Seems he had a choice on whether to draw the color-line or not!


Congratulations. You were just proven wrong

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Again, why are you attacking me for providing the quote? I’ve said time and again that it could have been mostly due to his management.

However, you talking about him not drawing the color line is obviously false as you see now. No matter what reason he did it for, the quotations make it clear that he did. So instead of claiming that he didn’t, you could have answered the question that I posed over and over instead of becoming incensed. Does he deserve any blame? It appeared that he could have accepted the fight against Langford. Probably could have accepted against Jeannette in NY since it was only an exhibition. It seems to me that it was his decision not to.

And both you and he admitting that he only ducked Langford because he was scared tells the story there. DEMPSEY DECLINED. I've never heard anyone try to blame that one on his management. It was all Dempsey. Face the fact. Tate stepped up and Dempsey declined because he said he was scared of a 33 year old man (pretty damn old for those times) who was in NEARLY 170 FIGHTS! He then NEVER FOUGHT LANGFORD just like he NEVER FOUGHT JEANETTE AFTER HE GOT HIS ASS OUT OF THE RING IN NEW YORK. Both were before he was champion and both were DUCKS. He could have fought either at a later date but he didn't.

As for Wills, I thought he had signed a contract and then pulled out before their final negotiation. I’ll look into it when I’m home if you’d like.

There's not helping you. You aren't willing to have your mind changed. I'll just reiterate a few things:
1. It wasn't Dempsey who wanted him to draw the color line. Just because a newspaper article with no author claims he said it doesn't mean it was his intentions. Kearns and Rickard wouldn't let him fight a black man, the public wouldn't let him fight a black man.

2. It wasn't a duck. He had a bad manager who offered him a fight that he wasn't ready for. There are plenty of instances in history where fighters decline fights with big name fighters because they aren't ready, they're too young. This is one of them.

3. Joe Jeanette wasn't running **** out of New York. If you actually think Joe Jeanette was somebody at that time period then you're probably the most ignorant son of a ***** I've ever met. He was 40 and wasn't even on anyone's radar since Johnson was champion.

4. Dempsey didn't back out. He signed the contract and the promoter backed out of it by refusing to pay Dempsey any money at all. That's how things worked back then, you get payed some money upfront then the rest after.

You have such a hard on for detracting form Dempsey that you are literally berating him for not fighting for free.

[ShoulderRoll]

"The funny thing about Langford is that he's half-blind, and he comes to Doc Kearns [manager of heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey] in the '20s -- and remember, Sam Langford has been fighting since the aughts -- and he wants to fight Dempsey. And Doc Kearns says, 'Sam, we were looking for somebody easier.'

"He was half-blind, he was a goddamned middleweight, and he was that good."

This just sounds like Kearns was being complementary (while saying no) to the old fighter. I don't think Kearns words should be interpreted in the manner you are suggesting.

"I think Sam Langford was the greatest fighter we ever had. In 1916 I came here and had a couple of fights and won them. I was managed by a fellow named John the Barber. After winning these two fights he said, "I got a good fight for you." I said, "Who is it?" He says, "Sam Langford." I said, "Not me! Goodbye!" He was a great fighter and I didn't have the experience to fight a man like that. He was a hell of a puncher, never been licked, so why should I get my brains knocked out for nothing? Even at my best I don't know whether I could lick him or not."

-Jack Dempsey 1970.

[travestyny]

Finally! I found a statement from Jack Dempsey himself about the Joe Jeanette incident. Now you guys can all stop claiming I'm lying. You can also stop claiming that he didn't duck him. Here, he clearly draws a distinction between facing ANY WHITE MAN and a COLORED BOY!

And don't tell me it wasn't from Dempsey himself, because the article is credited as being by him, he gives direct quotations in it, and he states clearly that he remembers it!!!!

He had engaged to meet a certain Joe Bond. With Jack Kearns , he entered the packed arena to loud and sustained cheers, and he was about to climb into the ring when Kearns checked him. In the squared circle had suddenly appeared a dark cloud instead of the white foreman Messrs. Dempsey and Kearns had engaged to decapitate. The cloud was none other than Harry Wills‟ precursor – the illustrious Joe Jeannette, Afric super-slugger and tax magnate of Hoboken and the Jersey Netherlands.

Jeannette paced the ring like a black angel of destructions, snorting challenge at the amazed white man. The crowd roared cheers at the Negro and emptied its fifteen thousand throats in jibes at Dempsey. Kearns, perfumed and peeved, bobbed about the press seats, strenuously arguing that Dempsey had offered his services gratis to fight a Caucasian named Bond: that he would fight none other.

The hissing of ten thousand serpents singed Dempsey's ears. The Negro's lips curled over shining teeth. Dempsey sprang from his chair for the ring, but a lavender-cuffed hand of Kearns restrained him. “You stay put,” Kearns barked as shrieks of “Quitter!” “Big bum!” “Yeller dog!” issued from the smoke clouds in the galleries.

Dempsey glowered, black-browed, flushed, a dumb giant stung by mocking wasps. Those nearest him understood, sympathized. If he went into the ring with Jeannette, one lucky punch might spoil his career.

“Sit tight, Jack,” I advised him. “Box Bond or nobody.” He thrust a bandaged hand into mine.

“I'll fight any white man they put on,” he growled huskily, “but I didn't agree to fight a colored boy.”

As Jeannette leered and the mob howled, he writhed. But between him and the ring stood the slim figure of Kearns. Twenty minutes of screaming and hissing ensued. Then Dempsey, head bowed, was led away.
http://static.boxrec.com/d/df/IBRO_O...sletter_01.pdf

Hmmmmm.....I wonder what you think of that, Mr.MojoRisin'. Looks like a duck to me. He tucked tail according with Kearns wishes and walked away from a fight in which he stated clearly that he would have fought ANY white man.

Just underlining the distinction he used for man and boy because....well...honestly I thought it was out of character for him. But that's how people talked back then so I won't go overboard about that.

Still, I think I've proven my point.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Lmaooo. You just posted one of the dumbest things ever above. That quotation doesn’t mean that at all. Desperation.

Didn't Floyd say something like Canelo will be the future of the sport? Yea...see how ****** you are now?

A good boy? You’ve embarrassed yourself repeatedly. Went off about philly and you were wrong. Went on and on about me saying it was a gift decision then tried to prove it wasn’t by reading into johnson’s quote what you wanted it to mean instead of what he said. . Claimed dempsey didn’t draw the color line then backtracked and said the quote may be accurate, but “just because he drew the color line doesn’t mean that he meant to draw the color line.” How ****** are you really??? Said that drawing the color-line was racist, which would make Dempsey racist, but you claimed I was the one who was claiming Dempsey was racist. LOGICALLY SPEAKING, YOU ARE CLAIMING DEMPSEY WAS RACIST, DUMBASS.

Go back to school, kid. When you post with emotion, you **** up like you’ve repeatedly done

I'm posting with emotion? You're the one typing in all caps with exclamation marks and swear words.

If you hadn't noticed Floyd was on his way to retiring and Canelo was up and coming. Whereas Johnson was an active fighter for 10 more years.

Dempsey didn't draw the color line. Kearns and Rickard did.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Lying? Jesus Christ. Slow down and read. I brought up tank. No one is lying about anything. Just calm your ass down and read.

And I'm saying why tf are you bringing up tank? I specifically said Ryan Garcia for a reason.

Lmao you can't even for an argument. Go back to sleep good boy.

[ShoulderRoll]

Actually not fighting them at all would have just the same bearing on his resume. You're reasoning for them being good to have on his resume is because they were great black heavyweights of the era. But the catch is at the time Johnson fought them they were not great black heavyweights. For christ sake Langford weighed 156 pounds! There is no way in hell that Johnson should get credit for a win over a middleweight!!

So Jack Johnson gets no credit for fighting Langford when Sam was young...but Jack Dempsey gets a pass for not fighting Langford when Sam was a veteran?

You have a bit of a flexible double standard going there, don't you?

[travestyny]

And I'm saying why tf are you bringing up tank? I specifically said Ryan Garcia for a reason.

Lmao you can't even for an argument. Go back to sleep good boy.

I brought up Tank because it was a convo I had with GhostofDempsey and was basically what you were trying to say, no? Too young and inexperienced.

The point is, Tank has time to fight Loma. Dempsey NEVER fought Langford.

Also, Dempsey was shown up by Tate, who was a year younger and had the same amount of pro fights.

Unless you want to bring up that these guys had more fights than Box Rec shows. Then that means Dempsey should have definitely been ready.

And we know that less than a year he fought a guy with over 100 fights. I think 7 months later. So he must not have been too worried about that. After all, the ONLY reason he gave for not fighting Langford was that he was scared.

[GhostofDempsey]

Here is what Johnson's record looked like for his last 20 fights after getting KTFO by Willard:

Frank Crozier 3-4
Arthur Craven Debut
Blink McCloskey 40-44-31
Jim Flynn Debut
Bob Roper 4-1-1
Tom Cowler 48-21-2
Marty Cutler 0-10-4
Bob Wilson Debut
George Roberts Debut
Farmer Lodge 12-14-1
Jack Thompson 21-20-6
Pat Lester 22-5-3
Bob Lawson 28-14-4
Brad Simmons 15-4-2
Bearcat Wright 37-11-7
Bill Hartwell 14-6-4
Rough House Wilson 0-1-0
Brad Simmons 27-12-4
Brad Simmons 28-13-4

He lost five of those fights.

For all the hype surrounding Johnson, it's hard to make an argument that he wasn't overrated. If anything Sam Langford deserved all the glory, but he was never champion so Johnson got the press.

[travestyny]

Here is what Johnson's record looked like for his last 20 fights after getting KTFO by Willard:

Frank Crozier 3-4
Arthur Craven Debut
Blink McCloskey 40-44-31
Jim Flynn Debut
Bob Roper 4-1-1
Tom Cowler 48-21-2
Marty Cutler 0-10-4
Bob Wilson Debut
George Roberts Debut
Farmer Lodge 12-14-1
Jack Thompson 21-20-6
Pat Lester 22-5-3
Bob Lawson 28-14-4
Brad Simmons 15-4-2
Bearcat Wright 37-11-7
Bill Hartwell 14-6-4
Rough House Wilson 0-1-0
Brad Simmons 27-12-4
Brad Simmons 28-13-4

He lost five of those fights.

For all the hype surrounding Johnson, it's hard to make an argument that he wasn't overrated. If anything Sam Langford deserved all the glory, but he was never champion so Johnson got the press.

Great. Now give us Dempsey's record with some more black fighters in there, and without the bicycle tape.

Oh wait......