Why Does Jack Johnson Get a Pass on Opposition while Marciano Does Not?

[travestyny]

No actually I did. You used Dempsey's feelings on his performance as an indicator for the outcome of the fight. That's just not how boxing works.



You posted a few newspapers out of probably 20+ reporters that were there. Do you see the problem with this?

John Lester Johnson: "I said that night that he was going to be champion. That guy could really hit. He hit me so hard and so fast for a while there I could hardy get my breath."

Sounds like Johnson is saying Dempsey got the better of him here.

Again, a draw was the appropriate decision. The newspaper reports are reporting from a viewpoint of high expectations for Dempsey. He had a bad showing so they over exaggerated. You realize that these are just reporters right? They aren't actual fighters. It's like hanging onto every word of Dan Rafael regarding modern boxing.

It’s a matter of opinion and like I’ve said, I’ve read most thought your boy lost.

For you to read into Johnson’s quote and try to see what Dempsey flat out said reeks of desperation. Dempsey said he felt he lost. That’s not at all what Johnson said.

Deal with it and stop crying.

[travestyny]

Sounds like you agree with me then. It's settled. Dempsey didn't duck Langford.



No, not at all. It was incredibly common for black fighters to fight each other because interracial bouts were very unfavorable by the public. Tate took a ton of fights with good heavyweights. He did it because he needed the cash. No other reason behind it. He wasn't trying to get a title shot, he was interested in making quick money like most fighters.



Yeah, he was scared because he knew he wasn't a good enough fighter yet. According to him he says he didn't even know how to fight yet at that time. Obviously hyperbole but it gets the point across.






Every time a black fighter is brought up you assume they are worthy of a title shot. You claim Dempsey ducked Langford and Johnson in the 1920s which implies that you think they deserved a title shot.

Put it this way. If Tank doesn’t fight Loma soon, I’d say it’s a duck.

Your boy NEVER fought Langford.

Did you find out if his color-line quote is legit yet?

[Mr.MojoRisin']

You rattle me? LMAOO. That's the opposite.

Are you saying the quotation is false? yes or no? It's a direct quotation.

So...is it a false quotation?


You gotta be an illiterate muffucca to say Dempsey never drew the color-line when you have a direct quotation from Dempsey saying, "As I've drawn the color line."

I have no idea if it's false or not. It could be.

Just because Dempsey said he was drawing the color line doesn't mean that it was his intention to draw the color line. He drew it because Rickard and Kearns told him he wouldn't be fighting any black fighters and most importantly BECAUSE IT PLEASED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

See you don't know much about Dempsey but I'll let you in on something. He was disliked by the American public soon after WW1 because they thought he was a draft dodger. This could be one of many reasons that he was forced to draw the color line. Nobody wanted to see a fight between an black man and a white heavyweight champion. Do you get this? Boxing survives because fans pay money to see fights. If nobody wants to see a fight then guess what? The fight doesn't happen!

So to summarize Dempsey did not come up with the idea of "hey I don't want a black man to have this title so I'm going to draw the color line". Kearns and Rickard forced him to draw it because they were in complete control of matchmaking. Do you understand? Dempsey could have said he won't fight any white fighters and it wouldn't have mattered at all because he had no control over who he fought. It was just publicity. Do you believe everything you read in the news?

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Put it this way. If Tank doesn’t fight Loma soon, I’d say it’s a duck.

Nobody has mentioned Tank. What are you talking about? I specifically said Ryan Garcia. Why are you lying? Did you misread my post perhaps? Maybe you jumped the gun...

Your boy NEVER fought Langford.

The sky is blue...so what?

[Mr.MojoRisin']

It’s a matter of opinion and like I’ve said, I’ve read most thought your boy lost.

Who's my boy? I don't have any kids yet.

For you to read into Johnson’s quote and try to see what Dempsey flat out said reeks of desperation. Dempsey said he felt he lost. That’s not at all what Johnson said.

Johnson said that he thought Dempsey was going to be champ. That means he himself couldn't be champ meaning he felt Dempsey could or did beat him.

Deal with it and stop crying.

I've made a good boy out of you.

[Dempsey-Louis]

But we do know from history that there was indeed a public demand for the bout. That's the entire reason that in the end Dempsey was only able to avoid it by claiming he wasn't given enough money.

There was clearly a demand for him to fight Joe Jeanette in NYC as well, as can be verified by the crowd calling him a coward.

You do realize that Dempsey's license was even suspended by the NY commission until he promised to fight Wills, right? That's how far this went.

The only thing that's relevant to me, it seems, is if Dempsey should take any blame in it. We know his management wanted him to swerve these guys. We also know that Dempsey believed that fighters like Wills deserved a shot. Should he take any blame for it not coming off? I guess it depends on how you want to look at it.

There was clearly a demand for him to fight Joe Jeanette in NYC as well, as can be verified by the crowd calling him a coward.

Do you really think the fight crowd getting pissed off was anything more than them getting pissed off because they were getting one less fight for their money. They would have booed anyone; they weren't buying in to some great act of injustice the way you are suggesting, they just wanted a another fight, any fight. You shouldn't call a pissed off fight crowd "public opinion."

There was as much resistance (maybe more) to mixed bouts as there was support for them. Along with New Jersey, Boston and Phily said no to the Wills fight as well.

You do realize that Dempsey's license was even suspended by the NY commission until he promised to fight Wills, right? That's how far this went.

As I said before you have to take into consideration that the NYSAC was acting on behalf of Wills because Muldoon was connected to the political party machine Tammany Hall who's members owned a piece of Wills. Think green!

Yes the NYSAC tried to block Dempsey from fighting anyone except Wills, but I don't understand why would you point to that as being important, it doesn't say anything except New York had its own agenda. Again think green!

Ironically the only thing it got New York was not to host Dempsey-Tunney I & II. That will show them.

Back in '22 they even tried to strip Demspey of his title (their recognition of it) only to find that the public didn't care, and they had to quietly back off with egg on their face.

[travestyny]

I have no idea if it's false or not. It could be.

Just because Dempsey said he was drawing the color line doesn't mean that it was his intention to draw the color line. He drew it because Rickard and Kearns told him he wouldn't be fighting any black fighters and most importantly BECAUSE IT PLEASED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

See you don't know much about Dempsey but I'll let you in on something. He was disliked by the American public soon after WW1 because they thought he was a draft dodger. This could be one of many reasons that he was forced to draw the color line. Nobody wanted to see a fight between an black man and a white heavyweight champion. Do you get this? Boxing survives because fans pay money to see fights. If nobody wants to see a fight then guess what? The fight doesn't happen!

So to summarize Dempsey did not come up with the idea of "hey I don't want a black man to have this title so I'm going to draw the color line". Kearns and Rickard forced him to draw it because they were in complete control of matchmaking. Do you understand? Dempsey could have said he won't fight any white fighters and it wouldn't have mattered at all because he had no control over who he fought. It was just publicity. Do you believe everything you read in the news?

Again, why are you attacking me for providing the quote? I’ve said time and again that it could have been mostly due to his management.

However, you talking about him not drawing the color line is obviously false as you see now. No matter what reason he did it for, the quotations make it clear that he did. So instead of claiming that he didn’t, you could have answered the question that I posed over and over instead of becoming incensed. Does he deserve any blame? It appeared that he could have accepted the fight against Langford. Probably could have accepted against Jeannette in NY since it was only an exhibition. It seems to me that it was his decision not to.

And both you and he admitting that he only ducked Langford because he was scared tells the story there. DEMPSEY DECLINED. I've never heard anyone try to blame that one on his management. It was all Dempsey. Face the fact. Tate stepped up and Dempsey declined because he said he was scared of a 33 year old man (pretty damn old for those times) who was in NEARLY 170 FIGHTS! He then NEVER FOUGHT LANGFORD just like he NEVER FOUGHT JEANETTE AFTER HE GOT HIS ASS OUT OF THE RING IN NEW YORK. Both were before he was champion and both were DUCKS. He could have fought either at a later date but he didn't.

As for Wills, I thought he had signed a contract and then pulled out before their final negotiation. I’ll look into it when I’m home if you’d like.

[travestyny]

Nobody has mentioned Tank. What are you talking about? I specifically said Ryan Garcia. Why are you lying? Did you misread my post perhaps? Maybe you jumped the gun...



The sky is blue...so what?

Lying? Jesus Christ. Slow down and read. I brought up tank. No one is lying about anything. Just calm your ass down and read.

[travestyny]

Who's my boy? I don't have any kids yet.



Johnson said that he thought Dempsey was going to be champ. That means he himself couldn't be champ meaning he felt Dempsey could or did beat him.



I've made a good boy out of you.

Lmaooo. You just posted one of the dumbest things ever above. That quotation doesn’t mean that at all. Desperation.

Didn't Floyd say something like Canelo will be the future of the sport? Yea...see how ****** you are now?

A good boy? You’ve embarrassed yourself repeatedly. Went off about philly and you were wrong. Went on and on about me saying it was a gift decision then tried to prove it wasn’t by reading into johnson’s quote what you wanted it to mean instead of what he said. . Claimed dempsey didn’t draw the color line then backtracked and said the quote may be accurate, but “just because he drew the color line doesn’t mean that he meant to draw the color line.” How ****** are you really??? Said that drawing the color-line was racist, which would make Dempsey racist, but you claimed I was the one who was claiming Dempsey was racist. LOGICALLY SPEAKING, YOU ARE CLAIMING DEMPSEY WAS RACIST, DUMBASS.

Go back to school, kid. When you post with emotion, you **** up like you’ve repeatedly done

[travestyny]

There was clearly a demand for him to fight Joe Jeanette in NYC as well, as can be verified by the crowd calling him a coward.

Do you really think the fight crowd getting pissed off was anything more than them getting pissed off because they were getting one less fight for their money. They would have booed anyone; they weren't buying in to some great act of injustice the way you are suggesting, they just wanted a another fight, any fight. You shouldn't call a pissed off fight crowd "public opinion."

There was as much resistance (maybe more) to mixed bouts as there was support for them. Along with New Jersey, Boston and Phily said no to the Wills fight as well.

Ok, but here's the thing. You keep saying that I provide info. without verifying them, and then I go back and do so. Here's what I'm finding with you. You keep looking into the psyche of people that you are not in order to fit an agenda. You just told me that Kearns was just being nice when he told Langford that they were looking for a lighter touch. I don't think it's fair for you to interpret what he was feeling.

And here, we have the people being upset that the fight didn't happen, and you're saying it's solely because they wanted another fight. But the point is, if that were the case, SO WHAT! Obviously that means that they didn't care that it would be a mixed race fight, right? So what's the problem? There was a venue, the fighters were there, and Dempsey declined while the crowd wanted him to take the fight!

You do realize that Dempsey's license was even suspended by the NY commission until he promised to fight Wills, right? That's how far this went.

As I said before you have to take into consideration that the NYSAC was acting on behalf of Wills because Muldoon was connected to the political party machine Tammany Hall who's members owned a piece of Wills. Think green!

Yes the NYSAC tried to block Dempsey from fighting anyone except Wills, but I don't understand why would you point to that as being important, it doesn't say anything except New York had its own agenda. Again think green!

Ironically the only thing it got New York was not to host Dempsey-Tunney I & II. That will show them.

Back in '22 they even tried to strip Demspey of his title (their recognition of it) only to find that the public didn't care, and they had to quietly back off with egg on their face.

I think the point that you re missing is that Wills was thought of as the number one contender, I'm pretty sure. Or at least very, very, very worthy of this fight. The Ring Magazine was also pushing hard for Wills having his chance. So why should anyone be upset about NSAC doing this when it was THE RIGHT THING TO DO!!! Wills deserved his shot.