DEBATE: Jimmy Deforest's Quotation Regarding Dempsey's Hand Wraps

[billeau2]

This is Emile Aerts in 1919. Tape looks white to me:

Can anyone find a tape that hardens on contact? Hint: What is described as "Bike tape" by sears has the opposite properties, it stays soft, like a tire, on contact...

Furthermore, I remember this now: "Bike Tape" in East Harlem was cloth electrical tape, it was the slang for the tape, at least where I grew up in East Harlem NYC.

Two important issues regarding this tape it seems to me would be:

a) that it is stated as doing the opposite of what it is supposed to do in the wrap...

b) There does not appear, at that time, or any time, a self hardening tape.

By the way, people can paint over tape guys... If it even matters lol.

If Dempsey had something in his wraps it should be something that works according to physics and can be identified to a degree... Its entirely possible that his trainer had his own concoctions that he used, but they would have some clue as to effect...I mean bartenders used to give people a drink for hang over and it made them feel better...the drink? a touch of brandy, mint and an ASPIRIN. It makes sense knowing aspirin and its affect on the body.

What would be in those wraps, if anything, that made for more damage to the opponent? It certainly was not the color of the tape.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Great. Prove it. Because Charles Samuel says that this was bicycle tape, and he got info from two people in the dressing room.

Prove that he's lying and give his motive.

You are asking someone to prove a negative again. He can't, you need to prove that it existed in 1919, it can't be the other way around.

I am not saying it didn't exist, really I am not. In fact I have no clue, I am just complaining about the way you argue. [Wink] You are using the classic 'argument from ignorance' cheat again; you are trying to reverse the burden proof when it must lay with you.

I can't believe you started this argument again; I really can't believe I replied again. LOL

[travestyny]

Just to add here, the bicycle tape that came out subsequent can be found in the Sears Catalogue circa 1930's which had most, if not all common hardware items found at the time. The tape is dark and it is designed to "stay soft" like a tire. This is the exact description for the tape.

If the term was a slang, there was a tape around that even up to my youth was used for stickball bats etc. this was cloth electric tape. One possible theory is that a trainer using tape misnamed this tape as bicycle tape...

Thing is neither tape hardens. When I looked for such a substance I could find nothing. In the source where allegeldly McCoy is using some tape the author is not describing the tape objectively either...he is giving an image to describe the tape... "the tape was like iron." He could have taken poetic license with this description as well.

These are some of the reasons, along with a reason I also tried to explain, namely that the wrap gloves would have an effect on anything used in the wrapping and that certainly there is no thinly wound tape that would cut through that wrap and glove...

These are some reasons why this "tape" is not a reasonable conjecture as far as I can see, as a cause of the damage.

As also said, there may have been another kind of substance, wrapping, tape... but I have yet to see evidence of a hardening tape...whether this be a white, dark, whatever color.

Also: Electrical tape of all colors did exist because of knob and tube wiring which was repaired with electric tape... regardless of color.

https://www.google.com/search?q=knob...hrome&ie=UTF-8

This is simple. Why would DeForest lie? Why would Charles Samuel lie?


And you never told me that your big "Sears" revelation was from the 1930's. I thought you mentioned it was from 1919, but I guess I was mistaken about that.

That the author of the Kid McCoy tale said it was like "iron," whether it be meant to be poetic or what have you, certainly reveals that it would have hardened very much, no?

And Willard used the same expression. That he's gone up against guys that wound tape so tightly that it felt like "iron" THROUGH the gloves. I don't know if he'd ever been hit with iron. I think he simply means that it was very, very hard.

Finally, there have been a plethora of people who commented on the use of bicycle tape in boxing. All have described it as making the hands very hard, whether it be "poetic" or not.

Mark Kram

The trade evolved first toward shoddiness, when, among other things, trainers would tape hands with lethal bicycle tape and would use razor blades to relieve swelling.

Jack Kearns

“I was a product of the days—have they ever ended?—when it was every man for himself,” Kearns would write years later. “In those times you got away with everything possible. Turn your head, or let the other guy turn his, and knuckles were wrapped in heavy black bicycle tape or the thick lead foil in which bulk tea was packaged. The net result was much like hitting a man with a leather-padded mallet.”

This should be taken as evidence that the tape certainly wasn't innocuous.

Are you in the debate or not? Let's get this rolling!!!

[travestyny]

You are asking someone to prove a negative again. He can't, you need to prove that it existed in 1919, it can't be the other way around.

I am not saying it didn't exist, really I am not. In fact I have no clue, I am just complaining about the way you argue. [Wink] You are using the classic 'argument from ignorance' cheat again; you are trying to reverse the burden proof when it must lay with you.

I can't believe you started this argument again; I really can't believe I replied again. LOL

No problem, and I appreciate your post.

The "no white tape on bikes" argument was already settled thanks mostly to Battling Nelson.

I thought that the information I provided by Charles Samuel was proof enough since he says it was indeed bicycle tape that was used, which is why I told him to prove his statement that it didn't exist. Once I got home and found that Battling Nelson found a picture that proves it did exist, it was easy for me to follow suit and find others.

And I don't want to be confused with "starting the argument again." There was debate about whether there would be a debate in the Thunderdome section. We decided to move the debate here, but I'm still waiting to see if there will be an opponent.

[The Old LefHook]

Everyone shot off their big guns already. The points have all been made, there is nothing left to say. It will just be the same old debate we have been listening to all along. Now, son, you have got nothing new to offer them. You should've teased 'em.

These boys is pretty clever. Why, they'll make a man waste his ammo on false targets, then move in like injuns. Too bad Deforest Kelly the doctor on Star Trek is dead, he might've known something. There is often strange power in names!

[travestyny]

Everyone shot off their big guns already. The points have all been made, there is nothing left to say. It will just be the same old debate we have been listening to all along. Now, son, you have got nothing new to offer them. You should've teased 'em.

These boys is pretty clever. Why, they'll make a man waste his ammo on false targets, then move in like injuns. Too bad Deforest Kelly the doctor on Star Trek is dead, he might've known something. There is often strange power in names!

Not sure if this was aimed at me. I assume so.

To some degree you are right. I was bored of waiting and I consider my evidence presented to be pretty damn strong so I decided to just put it out there, but make no mistake. The debate has not taken place.

The point is to have the opponent debunk DeForest’s statement. It hasn’t been done yet. The evidence I’ve provided is merely meant to support his statement. So far we have had only the color of tape be protested. That was shot down by Battling Nelson and the poster who made that assertion has not returned despite being around.

But the point is not for me to sit here and attempt to refute everyone who shows up. GhostOfDempsey claims this was already debunked. He is a no show.

Billeau has chimed in and still hasn’t made a clear statement about whether he will be the opponent.

A few more days and if no one steps in, I will consider this to be a debate I win by forfeit. I mean, it does say a lot that no one is willing to take the helm as the opposition.


I'm still waiting for the "injuns."

[Zaroku]

This is regarding a potential debate that was to take place in the Thunderdome section of the site.
BattlingNelson expressed that this would be a more fitting forum for such a debate, and I can see the logic in that, so I am moving it here.

First, to make some things clear:

1. This is NOT about Dempsey using plaster of paris or an iron spike. Both theories have been successfully debunked as far as any sensible person is concerned, in my opinion.

2. This is NOT about stripping Dempsey of any accolades or his stature. No one is arguing that he was less of a fighter than history has deemed him to be.

3. This is NOT about Dempsey doing anything illegal. At this time commissions were very lax, and nothing I say here is concerning legality.


Now that we have that out of the way, I will attempt to say precisely what this IS about.

Here is Jimmy Deforest's quotation:



As reported by NYTimes pulitzer prize winning sports writer Arthur Daley.

The issue: Is there any solid proof that would lead a rational and unbiased person to believe that this quotation to be describing a lie.

Two posters have been singled out to serve as my opponents in this debate. One is billeau2, who has since stated that his position is undebatable because he simply doesn't know if the statement is true or not. That is fine and I have no problem with that. I've told him that he may decline the offer to participate, but I've gone ahead with inviting him since he has repeatedly told me to make the thread.

The other poster is GhostofDempsey, who claims that this quotation has already been successfully debunked.



My contention is that this was NEVER debunked. What I'm looking for is proof that it has been debunked. I'm also looking for someone who will present evidence that would lead the rational, unbiased person to shift their opinion of this quotation to the realm of disbelief.

Again, I have invited specifically Billeau2 and GhostofDempsey to provide facts that lead the unbiased poster to believe that this statement is false, either by preponderance of the evidence or reasonable doubt, as is the case with our legal system.

I have asked that this debate be judged by at least 3 unbiased judges, and thus far, 2 posters have volunteered. 1 is siablo14 and another is McNulty. I have a few other judges I would like to suggest, and I would like to invite anyone who can demonstrate/pledge that they will look at the information unbiasedly and judge in good faith to volunteer to be a judge here. The judges must be approved by BOTH my opponent and myself. I will recommend the other judges whom I think can show proof of their unbiased character once I am aware of who my actual opponent is.

Also, if anyone reads this and wants to take the place of Billieau2 or GhostofDempsey, that is also fine.

Because this debate has taken so long to get underway for whatever reason that may be, I will go ahead with presenting my evidence immediately. This would give my opponent a chance to review my evidence and develop a refutation, perhaps a disadvantage for me, but at this point I don't care. I believe my side to be very strong and I'm not afraid to put the information out there to be reviewed.

I will begin with a shorter synapsis of my evidence and follow it up with a more detailed post.

The only thing I ask is for everyone to be civil and respectful. We are all capable of behaving like gentlemen even when posting online, I believe.

After I provide my evidence, I will wait for billeau2 and GhostofDempsey to arrive and state whether they will participate or not. They will have first crack at it since they were the original participants. If they decline, I will open it up for another poster to accept the challenge, and we will then work together to secure unbiased judges.

If you read all of that, thank you for your attention. Let's get to it!

Mad love and respect.. I'm old and wish I was greeting younger...
Iron mike pre his mentor dying would have stopped both of these light fisted fools.. I've been KTFO it's blissful..

[travestyny]

Mad love and respect.. I'm old and wish I was greeting younger...
Iron mike pre his mentor dying would have stopped both of these light fisted fools.. I've been KTFO it's blissful..

Lol. Well Iron Mike vs. Dempsey prime for prime would have certainly been an interesting match up. Mike had a lot of respect for Dempsey and I can see that he certainly borrowed from him. Much respect, Z!

[OctoberRed]

Lol. Well Iron Mike vs. Dempsey prime for prime would have certainly been an interesting match up. Mike had a lot of respect for Dempsey and I can see that he certainly borrowed from him. Much respect, Z!

Now that would be a fight of the century battle.

[BattlingNelson]

Can anyone find a tape that hardens on contact? Hint: What is described as "Bike tape" by sears has the opposite properties, it stays soft, like a tire, on contact...

Furthermore, I remember this now: "Bike Tape" in East Harlem was cloth electrical tape, it was the slang for the tape, at least where I grew up in East Harlem NYC.

Two important issues regarding this tape it seems to me would be:

a) that it is stated as doing the opposite of what it is supposed to do in the wrap...

b) There does not appear, at that time, or any time, a self hardening tape.

By the way, people can paint over tape guys... If it even matters lol.

If Dempsey had something in his wraps it should be something that works according to physics and can be identified to a degree... Its entirely possible that his trainer had his own concoctions that he used, but they would have some clue as to effect...I mean bartenders used to give people a drink for hang over and it made them feel better...the drink? a touch of brandy, mint and an ASPIRIN. It makes sense knowing aspirin and its affect on the body.

What would be in those wraps, if anything, that made for more damage to the opponent? It certainly was not the color of the tape.

Not an expert myself, but I would presume that when you wrap a fist with tape, the tape 'clusters' when the fingers and fist is used thereby creating thick, hard layers. I remember my dads old bicycletape and yes it remained soft on the crowbar by design, but surely not on a fist. It's hard to explain, but I reckon you can get the idea.