DEBATE: Jimmy Deforest's Quotation Regarding Dempsey's Hand Wraps

[travestyny]

No one's willing to step in speaks volumes that no one's prepared to spend an age trying to prove or disprove something that still is and always will, remain legally unproven

Why would it take ages? Didn't take me ages. This is just an excuse and you know it. What do you mean be "legally unproven." You don't have to prove anything definitively for it to be legally binding. The evidence lends toward what happened pretty clearly when the man who wrapped his hands said exactly what he did.

Plus, we already had one member, GhostofDempsey say this was debunked, but where he at doe? Everyone who posts like "well we can't really know for sure" proves that he's a liar

Obviously I can't prove that he didn't use some kind of tape, though whatever it was, surely must have been declared legal at the time
Dempsey's time as champ directly coincided with some monumental changes to the rule book
And that's the crux of why he's shrouded in controversy

Exactly. You can't prove that he didn't use some kind of tape. But that's not the discussion per se. We are discussing whether the evidence presented tells what likely occurred here. That's all this is. And again, this is not about the legality of it since we know the commissions were lax at this time. That some of you still are in denial about what seems to be so obvious is the interesting part.

Paul Beston sums this up very easily.

All the evidence points to a more mundane explanation: Dempsey wore handwraps wound with a tightening adhesive, likened to bicycle tape—more than sufficient to make his hands feel like rocks. The tape was not illegal at the time, and the testimony of multiple parties suggests that Willard’s people made no objection to it.
https://www.paulbeston.com/blog/the-...f-jack-dempsey

That's what we are discussing. What does the evidence point to? That's all. And the evidence is overwhelming.

Reason Willard was so badly hurt is because he never got a chance to recover from that 1st knockdown
To be allowed to smash seven bells out of someone while they're on all fours is nothing short of criminally insane
Added tape (without some kind of hardening adhesive) would only serve as extra hand protection
Dempsey's frenzied attacks meant hitting a lot of hips and elbows, so it stands to reason really

There you go with your assumptions again. Nope. You don't get away with that. Look at your other quotation about this:

Not seen it for years, but bicycle tape was still available in the 70's
Remember using it to patch up the handle bars on many an old bike

Stuck like **** to a blanket, and if enough of it was ever used to wrap the hands of a fighter
That fighter, as well as having his fingers glued together for weeks, would have almost certainly had an awfully unfair advantage in the ring

Doubt it was quite the same product in the 20's though and Dempsey being the sportsman he was would never have entertained the idea anyway
He was quite compassionate really, and always the first to help a man back onto his feet

So before when you assumed that Dempsey wasn't using it, it would have certainly been an awfully unfair advantage....

And now it was only to protect the hands. Which is it? I see that you added in parenthesis "without some kind of hardening adhesive," but you know what this discussion is about, so I'm not sure why you decided to add that part in.

His trainer said specifically that the tape he used became hardened.

A writer who worked closely with someone in the dressing room, actually with two people in the dressing room, and who also worked with Dempsey on a book, said specifically that this was bicycle tape. And there is more than enough info. out there about bicycle tape doing excessive damage, which correlates very well to your own quotation above. I'm just saying.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Here is a magazine article excerpt from the Pacquiao-Margarito fight back in 2010.

"This is because Margarito, in a January 2009 fight against Shane Mosley, was caught hard-handed. Ever since, Margarito, whose record is 38-6, has denied any knowledge of the substance found within his knuckle pads before that fight, even as the California State Athletic Commission revoked his boxing license and others argued for a lifetime ban. . .

. . . Like Resto, Margarito found himself embroiled in scandal. Like Resto, Margarito insisted he knew nothing. The commission in California discovered inside the wraps a mixture of sulfur and calcium, two elements found in plaster of paris. Margarito’s then trainer, Javier Capetillo, took full responsibility, claiming he used the wrong wraps by accident, a notion Roach called laughable.

The California commission produced no evidence that Margarito knew his wraps were doctored, but it held him responsible regardless, in the same way professional sports leagues suspend players who claim they unknowingly took performance-enhancing drugs. Margarito still cannot box in California, but as of February, he can compete in any state that will grant him a license. Like Texas."

[embryo]

Dempsey is overrated as hell, he had very few title defenses and was scared as hell of fighting black fighters who would have probably KO'd him. I have little respect for him, and I'm a white American male. His resume just doesn't impress me, and the fact that he ducked Jack Johnson just annoys me. **** Dempsey and his handwraps.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Dempsey is overrated as hell, he had very few title defenses and was scared as hell of fighting black fighters who would have probably KO'd him. I have little respect for him, and I'm a white American male. His resume just doesn't impress me, and the fact that he ducked Jack Johnson just annoys me. **** Dempsey and his handwraps.

Wills, you're suppose to say he ducked Wills. Although the 40+ Johnson was angling for a fight in '22 as well, but couldn't get anyone to take him seriously.

Check out Dempsey's KOs (especially 1st round KOs) in his run up to the championship and defenses up until '23. It was as exciting as Tyson in the late 80's. Forget his rating, he made prize fighting the million dollar game it is today.

[travestyny]

Contrast this thread with the one about Aaron Pryor.

We know that there was a mixed bottle, which was illegal in itself. But the thread focuses on the win being tainted, and most agree that it was because of the likelihood of a substance being used to boost Pryor's performance. Again, this is LIKELIHOOD. There was never any definitive proof of what exactly was in the bottle or whether he sniffed something besides smelling salts.


Now in this thread, the trainer himself says exactly the type of tape that he wrapped Dempsey's hands with, and this is supported by another guy who writes a book in which the bulk of the information came from a guy in Dempsey's dressing room, and some people say...."well uh, we can't know that definitively."

This is not aimed at any poster in particular, so I hope no one gets offended, but this shows that some of you guys are able to put 1+1 together for some fighters, but refuse to do the same for others.

[mickey malone]

Why would it take ages? Didn't take me ages. This is just an excuse and you know it. What do you mean be "legally unproven." You don't have to prove anything definitively for it to be legally binding. The evidence lends toward what happened pretty clearly when the man who wrapped his hands said exactly what he did.

Plus, we already had one member, GhostofDempsey say this was debunked, but where he at doe? Everyone who posts like "well we can't really know for sure" proves that he's a liar



Exactly. You can't prove that he didn't use some kind of tape. But that's not the discussion per se. We are discussing whether the evidence presented tells what likely occurred here. That's all this is. And again, this is not about the legality of it since we know the commissions were lax at this time. That some of you still are in denial about what seems to be so obvious is the interesting part.

Paul Beston sums this up very easily.



That's what we are discussing. What does the evidence point to? That's all. And the evidence is overwhelming.



There you go with your assumptions again. Nope. You don't get away with that. Look at your other quotation about this:




So before when you assumed that Dempsey wasn't using it, it would have certainly been an awfully unfair advantage....

And now it was only to protect the hands. Which is it? I see that you added in parenthesis "without some kind of hardening adhesive," but you know what this discussion is about, so I'm not sure why you decided to add that part in.

His trainer said specifically that the tape he used became hardened.

A writer who worked closely with someone in the dressing room, actually with two people in the dressing room, and who also worked with Dempsey on a book, said specifically that this was bicycle tape. And there is more than enough info. out there about bicycle tape doing excessive damage, which correlates very well to your own quotation above. I'm just saying.

Doubt it was quite the same product in the 20's though, or 1919 even

All the evidence is pretty weak, no one really explains exactly what tightening adhesive actually is/or was?
Epoxy Resin wasn't available until the mid 30's so that could never have been used
'Became Hardened' - How? By stroking it!.. In order to sell me something, at least know your product

And it'll take ages because we can only arrive at, 'What likely happened'
Golden age of sport being the golden age of sports writers, also means an abundance of conjecture
A never ending procession of so called witnesses and whistle blowers have added their bit over the years
All culminating to zero concrete proof
Believe Dempsey sued and won a settlement from Boxing Illustrated for what is today known as fake news

[travestyny]

Doubt it was quite the same product in the 20's though, or 1919 even

All the evidence is pretty weak, no one really explains exactly what tightening adhesive actually is/or was?
Epoxy Resin wasn't available until the mid 30's so that could never have been used
'Became Hardened' - How? By stroking it!.. In order to sell me something, at least know your product

And it'll take ages because we can only arrive at, 'What likely happened'
Golden age of sport being the golden age of sports writers, also means an abundance of conjecture
A never ending procession of so called witnesses and whistle blowers have added their bit over the years
All culminating to zero concrete proof
Believe Dempsey sued and won a settlement from Boxing Illustrated for what is today known as fake news

Pretty weak because you say so? Keep it real. You exonerated him regarding this based on you saying he is a good guy, and that is the very point of this thread. You said he wouldn’t have used bicycle tape when he has been said to use bicycle tape by more than one source.

If you think the evidence is weak, then why not take your chance saying just that to a panel of neutral judges and letting them decide? Again, THAT IS THE VERY POINT OF THIS THREAD! This is another invitation for you to step in. Are you down? Should be very easy for you to point out why the evidence is weak.

In the meantime, tell me this. Why is the word of his trainer while he was still training him pretty weak? What is your excuse about why he is lying about this?

So far you have said...I doubt it was the same product. ...I doubt he would have used bicycle tape. That is FAR WEAKER than the evidence presented here.

And finally, you are muddling this evidence up with the plaster story. This evidence regards the trainer’s admission while working with Dempsey. You can even add in the book written which thanked Dempsey for participating, which said he indeed used bicycle tape. Why would this author lie?

Would be great to hear your reasoning for why those two pieces of evidence are weak, because even the guy who was to be the original opponent here went on record saying the best evidence in this regard would be the word of the trainer who wrapped the hands

[Dempsey-Louis]

Believe Dempsey sued and won a settlement from Boxing Illustrated for what is today known as fake news

Dempsey 1965, sued Time Inc. (Sports Illustrated) for three million; it was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount. SI foolishly ran with the Kearns memoir (1964) and the 'loaded gloves' theory as though it was true, it cost them.

You have got to love how Doc Kearns could screw people over (Time Inc.) when he's not even trying.

[travestyny]

Dempsey 1965, sued Time Inc. (Sports Illustrated) for three million; it was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount. SI foolishly ran with the Kearns memoir (1964) and the 'loaded gloves' theory as though it was true, it cost them.

You have got to love how Doc Kearns could screw people over (Time Inc.) when he's not even trying.

I may be wrong, but I thought I’ve read that Dempsey even gave them a warning before suing. I guess they went along with it anyway. That was foolish and the plaster story was easily debunked, especially being that eye witnesses relayed that Kearns did not wrap his hands, but rather DeForest did.

What I’m hoping Micky Malone explains is the motive behind DeForest saying what he used on the hands and also the motive for Charles Samuel saying that Dempsey used bicycle tape in his book on Tex Rickard. Charles Samuel actually thanks Dempsey for helping him to write the book. Clearly, he wouldn’t spread false information about someone he thanks for helping him write that biography, right?

[Dempsey-Louis]

Clearly, he wouldn’t spread false information about someone he thanks for helping him write that biography, right?

To challenge just your last line, of course he would, I would have. Thanking Dempsey, regardless of what Dempsey might have thought about the finished book, could only help his sales.

Remember, he thanked Dempsey and then, only after the book was published, did Dempsey find out what the guy wrote.

e.g. Fire and Fury, Inside the Trump White House. (I'll bet most of the people that spoke to that guy, never saw what was coming.)

We need Dempsey's reaction to the book, not just the author's acknowledgment that he spoke to Dempsey.