DEBATE: Jimmy Deforest's Quotation Regarding Dempsey's Hand Wraps

[travestyny]

To challenge just your last line, of course he would, I would have. Thanking Dempsey, regardless of what Dempsey might have thought about the finished book, could only help his sales.

Remember, he thanked Dempsey and then, only after the book was published, did Dempsey find out what the guy wrote.

e.g. Fire and Fury, Inside the Trump White House. (I'll bet most of the people that spoke to that guy, never saw what was coming.)

We need Dempsey's reaction to the book, not just the author's acknowledgment that he spoke to Dempsey.

Sure, but that would mean that now there are two people with no real motive to lie about this that are lying. It simply doesn’t add up.

You are referring to him thanking Dempsey to boost sales. That doesn’t explain why he would say that Dempsey used bicycle tape. He could have thanked Dempsey and left that tidbit out, no?

What we do know is that Dempsey didn’t sue him. Lol.

And remember, Dempsey himself claimed that he used a black tape over the gauze in this fight. Clearly his recollection was not that he used surgical tape! Add to that another journalist of the time wondering how Dempsey would perform in the Tunney match because he wouldn’t be able to use bicycle tape, which was prohibited for that fight. All of this is not coincidence, bro.

[mickey malone]

Dempsey 1965, sued Time Inc. (Sports Illustrated) for three million; it was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount. SI foolishly ran with the Kearns memoir (1964) and the 'loaded gloves' theory as though it was true, it cost them.

You have got to love how Doc Kearns could screw people over (Time Inc.) when he's not even trying.

3 Million!.... Was astronomical sum back then

So the Doc inadvertently organised old Dempsey's retirement fund lol

[travestyny]

Since we are on page 7 and the debate is still non-existent, here's a very short recap of the info.

A. Jimmy Deforest, Dempsey's current trainer, stated that he wrapped Dempsey's hands with a "certain type of adhesive tape," the same he used for Kid McCoy, that would harden when the gloves were put on and cause "unusual punishment."

B. A 1909 article, 10 years before the Dempsey/Willard fight, tells of Kid McCoy using bicycle tape in matches, waiting for it to harden "like iron," and then cause excessive punishment (thanks to Battling Nelson for initially pointing me to this).

C. Charles Samuel writes a book about the life of boxing promoter Tex Rickard. He thanks Dempsey for his help writing the book and also Rube Goldberg, who was in Dempsey's dressing room when his hands were wrapped. He also gives a special thanks to Ned Brown for being the main contributor to the book. Ned Brown was also in Dempsey's dressing room for the taping of Dempsey's hands. Samuel writes that Dempsey's hands were wrapped with yards of bicycle tape.

D. Dempsey never denies that he used bicycle tape. In fact, years later Dempsey would say that he taped his hands with "a black tape," which is the most common color of bicycle tape.

E. In Dempsey's very next fight, the Dempsey/Carpentier match, Carpentier's manager asks Dempsey to remove the adhesive tape that was on top of his hand wraps.

F. Grantland Rice, who was also in Dempsey's dressing room for the Willard fight, writes that Tunney is a live underdog in their match because Dempsey will not be allowed to use his usual bicycle tape, which was prohibited for the match.


That's a whole lot of coincidence. Who is going to step in and show us why all of this is merely a coincidence or why the evidence is weak? Anyone? Seems pretty damn clear to me!

[mickey malone]

Good thread, but a little too obsessive compulsive kangaroo court specialist for me
Much like trying to find a winning lottery ticket blowing about in an urban subway

The bloke off Star Trek, McKoy (not Kid)

Like old lefty said, maybe he knows the truth!

Sorry to take the piss &joking aside, Dempsey wrapped his hands in whatever he could get hold of
Time moved on, and compared to Resto & Margarito we're talking about hamster bedding

So in the meantime, I'll be trolling the universe in an attempt to locate some kind of bandage that turns to rock soon as it comes into contact with ink

The pen and the sword come to mind

[travestyny]

Good thread, but a little too obsessive compulsive kangaroo court specialist for me
Much like trying to find a winning lottery ticket blowing about in an urban subway

The bloke off Star Trek, McKoy (not Kid)

Like old lefty said, maybe he knows the truth!

Sorry to take the piss &joking aside, Dempsey wrapped his hands in whatever he could get hold of
Time moved on, and compared to Resto & Margarito we're talking about hamster bedding

So in the meantime, I'll be trolling the universe in an attempt to locate some kind of bandage that turns to rock soon as it comes into contact with ink

The pen and the sword come to mind

Ok, but here is the thing, Mickey. You have avoided my question time and time again.

Why would the trainer lie? Why would Charles Samuel lie? Why would Grantland Rice lie? Why would there be an article 9 years before the fight that described this very same process?

And again, even you said the use of bicycle tape would have been an unfair advantage, but before even reading any of the info, you decided Dempsey would have never used it. That’s not being unbiased, you must admit.

All I wanted you to answer is why all those people would lie.

Nothing kangaroo court about this. I can point to various people who agree with me. I’ll edit the post with people who agree in a bit. But just want you to answer why all of the above would lie then we can drop it.

By the way, I appreciate you participating without getting heated. A few jabs at me but nothing major (and some added humor as well which is always appreciated!) and I do recognize lots of people seem to get very upset during convos for no apparent reason. Much respect for that. I’ve enjoyed the discussion, especially with you and Dempsey-Louis. Also with Battling Nelson who helped this along a lot, though the debate never came off after I was prodded to make the thread over and over again by a no show.

[travestyny]

Well until someone actually agrees with the thread starter
This topic's pretty much dead in the water really

Just for reference, here are some people that agree.

Arthur Daley— Pulitzer Prize winner for reporting and commentary--outstanding coverage and commentary on the world of sports; The National Sportscasters and Sportswriters Association "Sportswriter of the Year.”

The mention of “aluminum pads” would seem to indicate that there must have been some su****ion even then of destructive foreign substances inside Dempsey's gloves. The discredited Kearns tells a discredited story with his plaster of paris. But the DeForest tale of “a certain kind of adhesive tape” sounds both plausible and logical.
https://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/09/s...the-times.html

Paul Beston—Author of The Boxing Kings: When American Heavyweights Ruled the Ring.

All the evidence points to a more mundane explanation: Dempsey wore handwraps wound with a tightening adhesive, likened to bicycle tape—more than sufficient to make his hands feel like rocks. The tape was not illegal at the time, and the testimony of multiple parties suggests that Willard’s people made no objection to it.
https://www.paulbeston.com/blog/the-...f-jack-dempsey

Paul Beston Again:

The punishment that Dempsey inflicted in Toledo—likely exaggerated as the years passed—can probably be explained by DeForest’s use of a hardening tape to wrap his hands. One observer compared it with bicycle tape, which would make Dempsey’s hands very hard indeed.

Were Dempsey’s gloves loaded in Toledo? Yes—but only in comparison with the softer wrappings that modern fighters wear. The foul-play accusations that surround the Willard fight make wonderful lore but poor history. These were different times.
https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=...20tape&f=false

Carlos Acevedo—Boxing Writers Association of America/Intenational Boxing Research Organization.

For years, those who pooh-poohed the Railroad Spike Theory and the Plaster of Paris Plot have ignored two simple details.

The first is the fact that Dempsey did wear “loaded gloves.” As Al Spink pointed out in*The Atlanta Constitution*only months after Dempsey annihilated Willard:….So bandaging knuckles has become an art among the boxers, and the trickiest glove men are adepts in putting on the wraps so as to make the glove as hard as the old Roman cestus, with which the ancient gladiators often killed each other.” Jimmy Deforest explained how Dempsey had achieved such carnage in so short a time. Is it possible that Willard actually inspected Dempsey’s hands before the tape hardened?
https://thecruelestsport.com/2015/06...willard-fight/

Randy Warren Roberts — “Nearly 40 years later, Roberts’s biography remains the best book written about Jack Dempsey, and it’s not even close.”

Jimmy Deforest, who taped Dempsey's hands, admitted that he used a hard adhesive tape, but that was perfectly legal. Regardless of how hard the tape was during the fight, Dempsey was champion.
https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=...%20was&f=false

[Dempsey-Louis]

Is this the Willard fight? Hats in the background seem to say so . . . Dempsey's trunks say Willard fight but I am not sure what he wore for the Carpentier fight. Dempsey is young looking as well.

[travestyny]

Is this the Willard fight? Hats in the background seem to say so . . . Dempsey's trunks say Willard fight but I am not sure what he wore for the Carpentier fight. Dempsey is young looking as well.

I believe it is. It's on the first page along with a picture of Willard for the fight!

By the way, what was the deal with those hats?!!

[Dempsey-Louis]

I believe it is. It's on the first page along with a picture of Willard for the fight!

By the way, what was the deal with those hats?!!

I would say this pic doesn't answer the tape question, but if the fighters were gloved in the ring, the loaded glove theory seems very unlikely.

[Dempsey-Louis]

I believe it is. It's on the first page along with a picture of Willard for the fight!

By the way, what was the deal with those hats?!!

The hat was still popular for the Carpentier fight in 1921 - but for the most part disappears after that, by the late twenties you see many more cloth hats. The straw hat seems to have been big 1900-1920. Kind of an extended fad like plaid suits, I guess.