Is Lennox Lewis the best Overall heavyweight in history?

[billeau2]

As fond as I am of Dempsey, Lewis was no Jess Willard. I can't see Dempsey being competitive against Lewis, who was a better boxer than most give him credit. If he could handle Holyfield, who was a great boxer and 6'2" 235, he could handle Dempsey.

Despite being KO's by McCall and Rahman, he also took some tremendous punches from Holyfield, Vitali, Botha, Tua, Tyson, Briggs, Golota, and several other big heavies.

Now if we are talking on a P4P basis, all things being equal in terms of size, then yes, Dempsey would crush him. As would Joe Louis, Walcott, Charles, Baer, Patterson, Chuvalo, and Frazier.

Were talking about relative skills, weaknesses, strong points and how performance indicates these things...precedent. Look I don't know what would happen if Dempsey were plucked and put here now but I find it hard to believe that if he needed to put weight on it would be impossible. The guys fought lighter then for a lot of reasons.

But lets say that Dempsey could not put on 30 pounds and be a small heavyweight...Lets use prime Tyson instead.

Lewis fought a diminished Holyfield. I still think he might beat Holyfield, but Holy had seen better days. Also Lewis did not take so many shots from the guys you mentioned sans Briggs,he was better defensively than that. He did take some shots against Briggs.

Size works both ways. A lean mean Lewis, like the man who beat Razor Ruddock, was what? about 240? Louis towards the end of his career was around 224. Dempsey could have put on weight as well... Training and weight was partially dictated by the situation at hand.

[Miguel666]

lewis did not fight good boxers and lewis was badly knocked out to hell by journeymen he should have more loses against marovich and holyfield 1 and mercer

[The plunger man]

Your making assumptions. Its not about plucking Dempsey from the past necessarily... Put Dempsey presently with more size and a few more pounds if it suits you, or use Tyson, the point is the point. Its not about size per se its about skills and what weaknesses caused consistent problems...Lewis lost twice for the same reasons against inferior fighters.

Ok lets start.....firstly i was at the fight when lewis got beat by oliver Mcall and the punch he landed knocked lewis clean off his feet ....he got up at the count of six and the ref waved it off without giving him a chance to recover and a champion should at least be given a chance to defend himself....the same situation could of happened to clay with cooper or holmes when he boxed snipes and shavers and we would be looking at two knockout losses on ali and holmes resume if the referee acted the same way as the ref in lewis vs MCcall ...Mcall was almost 6ft 3 and 235lbs and rachman was 6ft 3 and 240lbs.....these are two fighters i would not call small lol....did lewis take them lightly when he boxed them yes he did but saying he lost because they were smaller fighters is way off as lewis handled david tua and tyson wth ease.
lewis lost to mccall becaue he wasn't developed enough and was raw techically and lewis lost to rahman because one he never acclimatised properly for fighting at high altitude and not taking his fight seriously by filming ocean 11 a few weeks prior to that fateful night in south africa.
Lewis when focused and fully fit beats any heavyweight in history

[billeau2]

Ok lets start.....firstly i was at the fight when lewis got beat by oliver Mcall and the punch he landed knocked lewis clean off his feet ....he got up at the count of six and the ref waved it off without giving him a chance to recover and a champion should at least be given a chance to defend himself....the same situation could of happened to clay with cooper or holmes when he boxed snipes and shavers and we would be looking at two knockout losses on ali and holmes resume if the referee acted the same way as the ref in lewis vs MCcall ...Mcall was almost 6ft 3 and 235lbs and rachman was 6ft 3 and 240lbs.....these are two fighters i would not call small lol....did lewis take them lightly when he boxed them yes he did but saying he lost because they were smaller fighters is way off as lewis handled david tua and tyson wth ease.
lewis lost to mccall becaue he wasn't developed enough and was raw techically and lewis lost to rahman because one he never acclimatised properly for fighting at high altitude and not taking his fight seriously by filming ocean 11 a few weeks prior to that fateful night in south africa.
Lewis when focused and fully fit beats any heavyweight in history

Sorry but if you make excuses for one fighter than every fight was a fluke that beat the odds on an excellent fighter. I agree with you about how good Lewis was and if this happened once I could even go so far as to excuse it...but even the other Louis who lost to Schmelling and fixed it...That fight taught him a lesson because it exposed a weakness.

If we take the trifecta of Rahman McCall and Mercer they were all smaller in stature to Lewis as compared to guys like Grant, Kitschko, etc....No they were not "small" per se I give you that. Lewis handled a much diminished Tyson, lets be clear... For the same reason I wouldn't say Klitsko fought a Lewis at the top of his game.

I actually think you do Lewis a disservice talking about his losses... why not simply say that given his capabilities and subsequent performance he should not have lost those two fights? especially considering who he bested? Frankly I would concede that point to you lol.

Here let me assume your identity for a moment: "Bill look...we are talking about a guy who fought all commers! When his mandatory was Ruiz...whos manager threw more shots than he did, Lewis fought the real challenge...Grant! Given the talent he fought, Morrison, Briggs, Klitsko, Golota... to get starched a few times, afterwards showing how much a fluke, doesn't Lewis get a pass?"

I would have to say this is a good point and that if Lewis had fought more times it might even qualify his status against these losses.

The reason I don't give one of my favorite fighters a pass is because it is a weakness...Lewis could have KO'ed a diminished Holyfield but his safety first strategy allowed the judges to rob him. its part of the same mentality that caused him problems: a lack of a killer instinct. Some people think it almost cost him against Briggs, I don't agree with that.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

What the hell you on about....lewis rivals any great heavyweight in history and i would arguably only place louis and ali above him......tyson,holyfield,morrison,klictcko,ruddock ,golota,tua,mercer,bruno and he avenged his only two losses , also won back the heavyweight title 3 times which is the same amount as ali did.....lewis beats any heavyweight in history when he is motivated

What am I on about? Wtf are YOU on about mother****er? Lewis doesn't rival **** in history. He got ktfo by Rahman and McCall, how are they viewed today? Oh yeah, as sub par heavies. Lewis's eggshell chin would get squashed by the good quality punchers that are regarded as atg's. The name's you mentioned were all crap aside from Klitschko. Lol I can't believe you mentioned Holyfield and Tyson who were almost or completely done by the time Lewis fought them. Not to mention old Holyfield gave Lewis hell of a lot of problems. Prime Holyfield would have ****ed him up.

[The plunger man]

What am I on about? Wtf are YOU on about mother****er? Lewis doesn't rival **** in history. He got ktfo by Rahman and McCall, how are they viewed today? Oh yeah, as sub par heavies. Lewis's eggshell chin would get squashed by the good quality punchers that are regarded as atg's. The name's you mentioned were all crap aside from Klitschko. Lol I can't believe you mentioned Holyfield and Tyson who were almost or completely done by the time Lewis fought them. Not to mention old Holyfield gave Lewis hell of a lot of problems. Prime Holyfield would have ****ed him up.

You dont know ****....many many greats in the past have hit the deck against lesser foes....clay with cooper , hearns with barkley , jones with tarver the list go's on..holyfield never touched lewis that first fight so again your talking out your arse ****kicker.....holyfield in the rematch done much better but he still lost and holyfield was a high class fighter who could compete with any heavyweight in history...tyson paid lewis 4 million step aside money because he never wanted to face lewis and that was in 1996.....tyson lost to every great fighter he ever faced and during his reign his best win was against a old larry holmes....dont be a f@ckin hyprocrite you dummy and go get some proper knowledge before you try and compete with me....dummy

[The plunger man]

Sorry but if you make excuses for one fighter than every fight was a fluke that beat the odds on an excellent fighter. I agree with you about how good Lewis was and if this happened once I could even go so far as to excuse it...but even the other Louis who lost to Schmelling and fixed it...That fight taught him a lesson because it exposed a weakness.

If we take the trifecta of Rahman McCall and Mercer they were all smaller in stature to Lewis as compared to guys like Grant, Kitschko, etc....No they were not "small" per se I give you that. Lewis handled a much diminished Tyson, lets be clear... For the same reason I wouldn't say Klitsko fought a Lewis at the top of his game.

I actually think you do Lewis a disservice talking about his losses... why not simply say that given his capabilities and subsequent performance he should not have lost those two fights? especially considering who he bested? Frankly I would concede that point to you lol.

Here let me assume your identity for a moment: "Bill look...we are talking about a guy who fought all commers! When his mandatory was Ruiz...whos manager threw more shots than he did, Lewis fought the real challenge...Grant! Given the talent he fought, Morrison, Briggs, Klitsko, Golota... to get starched a few times, afterwards showing how much a fluke, doesn't Lewis get a pass?"

I would have to say this is a good point and that if Lewis had fought more times it might even qualify his status against these losses.

The reason I don't give one of my favorite fighters a pass is because it is a weakness...Lewis could have KO'ed a diminished Holyfield but his safety first strategy allowed the judges to rob him. its part of the same mentality that caused him problems: a lack of a killer instinct. Some people think it almost cost him against Briggs, I don't agree with that.

I'm not doing lewis a diservice at all....many fighter in history have lost to fighters they should'nt have...how many times did larry holmes hit the deck ? How many times did ali hit the deck ? And how many times was joe louis floored....these are heavyweights and one shot can change everything......holmes was equaly as hurt agianst shavers,snipes, weaver but the ref never waived it off....i much prefer to look at the performances by lewis when he had a fight on his hands to judge how great he was , tyson showed his limitations even before he got beat by douglas when he came up against tillis,tucker,smith and when he got tied up and smothered he ran out of ideas and tyson victories during his reign were hardly world beaters and it was tyson who paid lewis millions to avoid him.
Under your same comparison is it safe to say that ken norton was a better boxer than ali becauee really all 3 of there fights norton should have got the decision.
I do agree with you that lewis in some fights lacked that killer instinct and coasted which in turn did cause two of his defeats but again these are big men and one shot can ruin everything and we saw that with rahman and mccall.
But billy i will say this again when you Look at lewis past record it rivals any heavyweight in history and even at 38 he was defeating a future great in klitchcko ...ali,louis,holmes were all way beyond there prime and taking severe beatings at that age.
As i said before when lewis was focused and on point he beats any heavyweight in history and that includes ali,louis or dempsey.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

You dont know ****....many many greats in the past have hit the deck against lesser foes....clay with cooper , hearns with barkley , jones with tarver the list go's on..holyfield never touched lewis that first fight so again your talking out your arse ****kicker.....holyfield in the rematch done much better but he still lost and holyfield was a high class fighter who could compete with any heavyweight in history...tyson paid lewis 4 million step aside money because he never wanted to face lewis and that was in 1996.....tyson lost to every great fighter he ever faced and during his reign his best win was against a old larry holmes....dont be a f@ckin hyprocrite you dummy and go get some proper knowledge before you try and compete with me....dummy

The moment you said Tyson was a good win for Lewis discredited your entire opinion.

Lewis did a lot more than hit the canvas he got KTFO! Lol you just agreed with me, Holyfield gave Lewis problems. By the time he was 37 he was past it, no arguing that. You clearly have rose colored glasses on.

80s Tyson would have ran Lewis over. 90s definitley not.

You boxing knowledge is ****. The only way to be this dumb is if you are actually trying at it.

[The plunger man]

The moment you said Tyson was a good win for Lewis discredited your entire opinion.

Lewis did a lot more than hit the canvas he got KTFO! Lol you just agreed with me, Holyfield gave Lewis problems. By the time he was 37 he was past it, no arguing that. You clearly have rose colored glasses on.

80s Tyson would have ran Lewis over. 90s definitley not.

You boxing knowledge is ****. The only way to be this dumb is if you are actually trying at it.

Tyson beat nobodies and lost to a 50-1 shot....who did he beat again thomas,tubbs,ribalta,biggs,smith,tucker....such amazing challengers he faced
Tyson lost all his major fights he was involved in....he even paid lewis 4 million so he didnt have to face him.
Took the distance by tillis,green,smith,tucker and only beat medicre challeners or an old larry holmes....GTFOH clueless

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Tyson beat nobodies and lost to a 50-1 shot....who did he beat again thomas,tubbs,ribalta,biggs,smith,tucker....such amazing challengers he faced
Tyson lost all his major fights he was involved in....he even paid lewis 4 million so he didnt have to face him.
Took the distance by tillis,green,smith,tucker and only beat medicre challeners or an old larry holmes....GTFOH clueless

You're acting like I think Tyson is the best heavyweight around. He has many problems, resume being one. He beats Lewis period. Too fast, too powerful, too brutal.