Joe Louis vs Ali, Liston, Frazier, and Foreman?

[billeau2]

when it comes down to frazier and louis, i'll choose louis like 80% of the time just based on the fighting style and background. louis was a real power puncher, he could knock dudes out cold with straights, though at the same time he was a technical striker too. not sure about the rest, but if it was frazier vs louis, i'd go with louis.

Well to play devil's advocate here... what about Louis' chin? what about Frazier's chin? In a war of attrition Frazier had the better whiskers. Whats interesting about this fight is that Frazier would be there to be hit... and its hard to figure out how prime Louis deals with frazier's style.

[HipHop]

Well to play devil's advocate here... what about Louis' chin? what about Frazier's chin? In a war of attrition Frazier had the better whiskers. Whats interesting about this fight is that Frazier would be there to be hit... and its hard to figure out how prime Louis deals with frazier's style.

aggressive defense... i think louis would be on his toes but still be game for a good fight and would mostly go with straights, which personally, i think would win the fight, a really solid straight, either that, or by point.
though i would never under estimate frazier, or anyone else tbh, i know just one punch can change EVERYTHING.

[Tom Cruise]

Well to play devil's advocate here... what about Louis' chin? what about Frazier's chin? In a war of attrition Frazier had the better whiskers. Whats interesting about this fight is that Frazier would be there to be hit... and its hard to figure out how prime Louis deals with frazier's style.

Louis was a better inside fighter than given credit for.

He really took Godoy apart in their second fight

[Joe Beamish]

Two sources? Really!! WOW!!!! hold the house down!!!! yes they are not convenient to my argument which is what exactly? More like my cautionary appeal to your apparent lack of reason...but i didn't know that "lack" existed...I get it now, will keep my fingers shut. I never laid out an argument.

Yes a bad habit thats the point, and since when did I characterize any fighter by anything? where are you getting this idea from? On the contrary...actually you are characterizing Louis based on what amounts to heresay...that was my point and if you think two sources means anything your a yenta indeed!

"Common sense would indicate?" How about getting smacked in the face all night by Schmelling could that have affected his performance? would that indicate anything? You don't even need common sense really... But its not logical and will never be logical, that because all of two sources does not amount to much evidence...Could still be true of course, but not based on two sources on wiki.

Reading comprehension here is lacking at times, its annoying. Judging from your response one would think that I made a big statement about louis and his training when in fact all I did was pleasantly offer a caution that while wikileaks is a good middle ground for most topics, as a source in itself it should be questioned. Your conclusion to most reasonable people would be an example of that.

Then I explained that despite your two sources with IQ's of 180 and the ability to levitate, and see the future...most pugs and pug prognosticators felt that Louis' training was not necessarily the issue. Its not even my opinion! History tells us that Schmelling caught Louis all night because of a habit. There might be something more to it as well, better find out and not take the word of Wiki on this one...best to verify.

You come back with some kind of a grand statement. Look I don't even know if what you are saying is true...Maybe your right, but not based on two sources from WikiI can't say it any more simple than that. So please spare me the assumptions about what argument I am making, about what assumptions I have about fighters and characterizing them based on a fight... about technical adjustments and other fighters, and most assuredly about what "everybody knows" as you put it.

Again, when you said you'd "never heard" that Louis didn't train seriously (if at all) for the first Schmeling fight, I quoted from the Wiki entry on the fight. You then smeared Wiki as being unreliable -- which easy to do, unless you also specify why you have reason to believe that Wiki's two sources for the claim are not credible.

Feel free.

Or you could put up a source of your own as a counterpoint...or you could just keep spewing garbage.

[billeau2]

aggressive defense... i think louis would be on his toes but still be game for a good fight and would mostly go with straights, which personally, i think would win the fight, a really solid straight, either that, or by point.
though i would never under estimate frazier, or anyone else tbh, i know just one punch can change EVERYTHING.

There is an old axiom that given a straight and a loop straight gets there first! That speaks well to Louis frankly and it might apply here... Frazier's hook was blinding but Joe's straight shots? Made blinding look slow!

[billeau2]

It was the left! Louis would throw the jab (left) and "row" it back!
Max saw the error and counter the jab with a right hand and it landed flush. Louis at that age (22 yrs old) mostly leaned back and down to his right knee to slip punches and Max followed up at that repeated move too.
Max was a very good fighter who was well schooled in boxing and trained in the states once he signed with Jacobs. He has a strong right hand but he was a slow starter and he was caught early two or three times in his career.
He was 53-7 when taking on Louis the first time he had been robbed in the Sharkey fight 3 years early and there were fighters who didn't want to fight him. It could have been certain connections not willing to take the chance with a "foreign" born fighter but either way Max was no easy mark. He dropped a few decisions prior to the first Louis fight but came back against the same men and beat them.
Max was a game fighter and was a talented one also. He was stopped 5 times in 10 loses in a total of 70 pro bouts. At least 3 of his losses were questionable his willingness and heart were never in doubt and the man lived to be 99 years old.

Ray

The left!!! Sorry Ray wrong hand lol. Sometimes I think I caught a few too many shots.

[billeau2]

Louis was a better inside fighter than given credit for.

He really took Godoy apart in their second fight

Yeah he also had faster feet than given credit for...he was just really efficient and didn't waste energy. There are things a man can do this way: Punch with both hands, learn angles and cutting the ring...as opposed to chasing someone, and understand how to put work in early for the later rounds...

Great example of this last one is Andre Ward against Dawson....Ward saw Dawson's guard hand was low and he deliberately throws the hook at Dawson's guard, knowing that it is low...Tricking Dawson into a false sense of security. Sure enough he feints low and comes in right over the hand to Knock Dawson down. Ward could always make that adjustment but preferred to set up for a big punch by letting Andre think he was blocking his face against the punch. Barry Robinson gets the credit for showing this and explaining it better than me on tape.

[billeau2]

Again, when you said you'd "never heard" that Louis didn't train seriously (if at all) for the first Schmeling fight, I quoted from the Wiki entry on the fight. You then smeared Wiki as being unreliable -- which easy to do, unless you also specify why you have reason to believe that Wiki's two sources for the claim are not credible.

Feel free.

Or you could put up a source of your own as a counterpoint...or you could just keep spewing garbage.

Show me where I said Wiki was unreliable...Show me where I said Wiki's sources were not credible...show me where I took a point in opposition to your own.

Forget it, you aren't reading what I am writing, its cool I blew my top, you are entitled not to read it...But you really do not understand the points I am making. best to leave it at that because you are putting words in my mouth by the ton.

[ShoulderRoll]

If Henry Cooper could drop Cassius Clay then I have no doubt that Joe Louis could do the same and more.

[Joe Beamish]

Show me where I said Wiki was unreliable...Show me where I said Wiki's sources were not credible...show me where I took a point in opposition to your own.

Forget it, you aren't reading what I am writing, its cool I blew my top, you are entitled not to read it...But you really do not understand the points I am making. best to leave it at that because you are putting words in my mouth by the ton.

Review this very thread:

You said, "Listen I happen to love Wikipedia. I think it is ingenious and is a fantastic resource...But I would caution you about relying upon it as a source in and of itself."

Which of course I did not do. I pointed out that the Wiki entry refers to two primary sources for the claim that Louis didn't take training seriously for the first Schmeling fight. If he trained at all.

My simple point -- which has cost you so much hot air, typing, and angry spewing to attempt to refute, though I don't know why -- was that there is good reason not to base your entire assessment of Joe Louis as a fighter solely on his first fight with Schmeling.