Rocky Marciano VS Wladimir Klitschko.

[Bundana]

if we're talking about Rocky Marciano 5'10" 188lb fighter vs Wlad Klitschko 6'6" 240 lb fighter then I have no delusions about the outcome. Of course Wlad would win. I don't think any fighter in history has fought a good champ with a 52lb weight disadvantage much less win. But, if we we're talking about Rocky p4p against Wlad p4p then I see Rocky ko'ing Wlad under 10.

This!

I just don't see, how Rocky could overcome a size disadvantage this massive.

[The Old LefHook]

This!

I just don't see, how Rocky could overcome a size disadvantage this massive.

By having an advantage in important qualities not geometrically measurable compensating for his geometrical disadvantages. One such department could be stamina; another might be toughness. I am not saying he could do it but if he did do it that is why it could be done.

In heads up volleyball Rock would never win, but in boxing I believe he would win sometimes.

Vlad fights tall by leaning in on the move trying to maintain a safe distance where he can hit and not be hit by shorter opponents. This is not a balanced position. If the T-rex can consistently violate this zone with swiftness he could conceivably throw the big slav off his game.

If, like a lot of people, you don't consider Vlad a high quality champ in terms of historical greats, it is not such a stretch to devise a realistic scenario where the Rock wins. Styles make fights and all fighters are vulnerable to something. Dempsey, for instance, weighed essentially the same as Rocky, and I would give Vlad little chance against the Manassa mauler who was quicker on his feet and more evasive via head movement and crouching. If Dempsey would not mimmick Sanders' KO win I am a monkey's uncle. Vlad is vulnerable to short, straight punches in bunches.

Vlad's responses to pressure are mediocre.

I am not sure Rocky would be able to crowd the slav the right way, but I believe Dempsey's crowding approach would be just right for the dancing behemoth, quick enough to disconcert him and get those stilts tangled.

[billeau2]

this fight not a gimme!

Regarding the size advantage, Marciano could come in heavier, but why? Valuev had a great size advantage on most of his opponents and lost to some.

Left Hook said it best when he asks how good we consider Vlad?

What makes this fight somewhat intriguing is to see when, and if, Marciano faced someone with a really strong jab and reach advantage. It is certainly true that Marciano faced men who knew how to use a jab well, but Vlad has a really good jab.

So in reality Vlad has a size advantage and is using his jab against a guy who never fought a guy who specialized in the jab. On the other hand, Vlad is dead in the water once Marciano gets inside. When has Vlad faced a really good pressure guy who could punch? Sanders had some of those qualities perhaps but was a southpaw and not so much a pressure guy....though he did pressure Vlad in that fight, that was his strategy.

I could see Vlad being disqualified for excessive clinching...seriously, because Marciano was strong enough to make Vlad tired in trying to keep him at bay. Vlad never faced a strong pressure fighter the likes of HALF as good as Marciano! Haye couldn't pressure another man in the ring if his life depended upon it...Sam Peter? not in a million years. Again the Sanders fight looms large because even though Sanders is not a pressure fighter, he pressured Vlad which is how he won that fight.

Given these factors I think one can see that this fight is intriguing. Yes Dempsey would probably be a shoo in against Vlad because his punches were so clean, his footwork so much faster, Vlad could not even clinch the mauler because Dempsey did not stay moving in the same direction...watch his pivots...heck watch Mike TYson's pivots to see how Dempsey worked against a man trying to clinch!

Marciano is more methodical and even in the application of pressure. He often slipped punches, and was willing to exchange if it meant he could get inside to work. Could he slip Vlad's jab? While Vlad's jab is excellent, he does not always double up the jab, as we saw against Fury. So this is a hard question to answer.

Hopefully I can disabuse people of the notion that this fight is a gimme because of Vlad's size. There are two things we can assume for this fight: either Vlad wins or Marciano wins, just kidding! The two things are: If Vlad an keep marciano hit with his jab the rock is in trouble and...If marciano can get past the jab, Vlad is in trouble.

[juggernaut666]

Regarding the size advantage, Marciano could come in heavier, but why? Valuev had a great size advantage on most of his opponents and lost to some.

Left Hook said it best when he asks how good we consider Vlad?

What makes this fight somewhat intriguing is to see when, and if, Marciano faced someone with a really strong jab and reach advantage. It is certainly true that Marciano faced men who knew how to use a jab well, but Vlad has a really good jab.

So in reality Vlad has a size advantage and is using his jab against a guy who never fought a guy who specialized in the jab. On the other hand, Vlad is dead in the water once Marciano gets inside. When has Vlad faced a really good pressure guy who could punch? Sanders had some of those qualities perhaps but was a southpaw and not so much a pressure guy....though he did pressure Vlad in that fight, that was his strategy.

I could see Vlad being disqualified for excessive clinching...seriously, because Marciano was strong enough to make Vlad tired in trying to keep him at bay. Vlad never faced a strong pressure fighter the likes of HALF as good as Marciano! Haye couldn't pressure another man in the ring if his life depended upon it...Sam Peter? not in a million years. Again the Sanders fight looms large because even though Sanders is not a pressure fighter, he pressured Vlad which is how he won that fight.

Given these factors I think one can see that this fight is intriguing. Yes Dempsey would probably be a shoo in against Vlad because his punches were so clean, his footwork so much faster, Vlad could not even clinch the mauler because Dempsey did not stay moving in the same direction...watch his pivots...heck watch Mike TYson's pivots to see how Dempsey worked against a man trying to clinch!

Marciano is more methodical and even in the application of pressure. He often slipped punches, and was willing to exchange if it meant he could get inside to work. Could he slip Vlad's jab? While Vlad's jab is excellent, he does not always double up the jab, as we saw against Fury. So this is a hard question to answer.

Hopefully I can disabuse people of the notion that this fight is a gimme because of Vlad's size. There are two things we can assume for this fight: either Vlad wins or Marciano wins, just kidding! The two things are: If Vlad an keep marciano hit with his jab the rock is in trouble and...If marciano can get past the jab, Vlad is in trouble.

Sam peter was 6'2 with a 77 inch reach and outweighed Wlad which enabled him to physically get inside an survive. If Marciano put on weight he would be even slower he was not fast at all,Wlad is much faster than him...MUCH faster despite being 6'6 240 plus......its not a good match up. Rockys need for opponents to stand still while he sets up shots on the inside also makes this even more of a mismatch. Wlad simply is not a statue as many believe he actually moves continuously.

Cant see this fight going past 3 rnds either by cuts or a k.o. Wlads one two punch would find its mark, and his jab alone would probably be a harder punch than anything Marciano has tasted. Marciano often lunged 2/3 feet away from a moving target if he had one, the odds Wlad quick reflexes of seeing Rocky lung forward for his A shot simply wouldn't reach him and its a hard sell visioning Marciano remotely winning this for me.

[The Old LefHook]

Vlad often throws a scared jab as he is leaning in and trying to dance away at the same time. Not a power punch, which puts him off balance as well. He does frequently use the jab, I will give him that. If he used a fall-step jab like Dempsey it would be a sure destroyer. But against Marciano I expect typical Vlad who will not stand his ground as he should against the Rock and will try to be his 6"6' version of cute.

The thing about the really big boys I have noticed--like Lewis, Vitali & Vlad and Fury et al--is when they go into their Ali/Holmes routine from the outside, there is no denying that it does usually work for them even though they lumber rather than float, because they are exceptionally oversized, but the lumbering routine also leaves them off balance and often vulnerable to the right combination of skills and strategy which limited fighters like Peter do not possess, just as it left the ageing version of Ali/Holmes vulnerable and was often exploited by the more skilled opponents of their generation. That was one sentence, lads.

It is Manny Steward vs Charlie Goldman in the strategy department. Charlie has a malleable student and so does Manny. Both can obey instructions and follow the strategy, though Rocky has the more iron discipline and was not known to panic.

The dimensions of Manny's instructions and strategy are clear to me, since it was he more than anyone else who indoctrinated Vlad with a lasting philosophy which tells plainly today.

How wise was Goldman? My first thought is, probably wise enough not to allow this fight, but then I realize he would have allowed a fight with Carnera in a heartbeat, so he would probably go the extra half mile and allow one with the trundling slav as well.

So what is he going to tell Rocky, how is he going to train him? This could have significant import on the fight. He cannot tell him not to get cut. I do not see Rocky's bending lean-away tactic while pawing with the left being effective unless he converts it most of the time to a rush. He has to become more of a constant pressure fighter a la Frazier to bring out the best but also punch straight up the middle. Round punches are no good for Rocky unless it is a clear body shot inside. Straight shots and uppercuts. Once inside, stay in his chest. Do not bend inside looking for angles. Vlad will do that and is actually pretty good at taking one big step inside to clear himself an angle. The more important job is to stay in his chest when he does take that step so he does not get the angle he wants. Never take a backward step, for they can do you no good. Lots of head movement on the outside.

Those are general instructions. I don't know exactly what Goldman will teach and expect, though some of the above is highly probable. We know the Rock will be in peerless condition.

A T-rex is hard to tie up from that height, I can visualize that much. Vlad will have to wrap his arms all the way around him as a last recourse, a stinker with judges, who are not likely to play a part anyway. Boos from the 1950's crowd might. A frustrated Rock might even throw a headbutt in the effort to pull loose, which could earn a point deduction, could break Vald of the habit as well, and could also earn Vlad a deduction if he continues the tactic if Rock has already received one.

It is probably a good fight because Vlad will try the oaf dance instead of standing his ground and stepping for angles. But if Rock is succesful with his crowding it will also put the slav grudgingly in a position to be at his most dangerous and his most vulnerable because he can find an angle with one big step unless he chooses to run with that step. So Rock will be at his most dangerous and his most vulnerable when he is successful with his maneuvers. The fight will not go to decision.

In streetfights the vastly undersized man of higher quality sometimes wins. The same thing is possible when two highly trained men have counterbalancing disparities in size and quality. If this counterbalancing disparity in quality does not exist, then neither does Rock's chance to win.

[soul_survivor]

All these guys you listed as having kod wlad were not only a lot bigger than rocky but also caught wlad before here are the exceptional defensive fighter that would dominate the division.

Now I'm not one of those size whores who thinks a big heavyweight will always beat a smaller heavyweight but rocky was slow AND plodding. His feet always dragged and with his comparatively tiny reach, there's nothing he could do against wlad, even landing a lucky shot is very unlikely.

Now there's no denying rocks heart and he'd last in there, taking punishment and getting cut up. I expect the ref would have to stop it.

[billeau2]

Sam peter was 6'2 with a 77 inch reach and outweighed Wlad which enabled him to physically get inside an survive. If Marciano put on weight he would be even slower he was not fast at all,Wlad is much faster than him...MUCH faster despite being 6'6 240 plus......its not a good match up. Rockys need for opponents to stand still while he sets up shots on the inside also makes this even more of a mismatch. Wlad simply is not a statue as many believe he actually moves continuously.

Cant see this fight going past 3 rnds either by cuts or a k.o. Wlads one two punch would find its mark, and his jab alone would probably be a harder punch than anything Marciano has tasted. Marciano often lunged 2/3 feet away from a moving target if he had one, the odds Wlad quick reflexes of seeing Rocky lung forward for his A shot simply wouldn't reach him and its a hard sell visioning Marciano remotely winning this for me.

I don't think marciano is served well gaining weight, actually thats my point about him gaining weight, "why?" If Vlad keeps him at a distance and can really tag him, in that scenerio he would win....in that scenerio.

I see other potential scenerios as well. But I can see believing the fight would go this way.

[billeau2]

Vlad often throws a scared jab as he is leaning in and trying to dance away at the same time. Not a power punch, which puts him off balance as well. He does frequently use the jab, I will give him that. If he used a fall-step jab like Dempsey it would be a sure destroyer. But against Marciano I expect typical Vlad who will not stand his ground as he should against the Rock and will try to be his 6"6' version of cute.

The thing about the really big boys I have noticed--like Lewis, Vitali & Vlad and Fury et al--is when they go into their Ali/Holmes routine from the outside, there is no denying that it does usually work for them even though they lumber rather than float, because they are exceptionally oversized, but the lumbering routine also leaves them off balance and often vulnerable to the right combination of skills and strategy which limited fighters like Peter do not possess, just as it left the ageing version of Ali/Holmes vulnerable and was often exploited by the more skilled opponents of their generation. That was one sentence, lads.

It is Manny Steward vs Charlie Goldman in the strategy department. Charlie has a malleable student and so does Manny. Both can obey instructions and follow the strategy, though Rocky has the more iron discipline and was not known to panic.

The dimensions of Manny's instructions and strategy are clear to me, since it was he more than anyone else who indoctrinated Vlad with a lasting philosophy which tells plainly today.

How wise was Goldman? My first thought is, probably wise enough not to allow this fight, but then I realize he would have allowed a fight with Carnera in a heartbeat, so he would probably go the extra half mile and allow one with the trundling slav as well.

So what is he going to tell Rocky, how is he going to train him? This could have significant import on the fight. He cannot tell him not to get cut. I do not see Rocky's bending lean-away tactic while pawing with the left being effective unless he converts it most of the time to a rush. He has to become more of a constant pressure fighter a la Frazier to bring out the best but also punch straight up the middle. Round punches are no good for Rocky unless it is a clear body shot inside. Straight shots and uppercuts. Once inside, stay in his chest. Do not bend inside looking for angles. Vlad will do that and is actually pretty good at taking one big step inside to clear himself an angle. The more important job is to stay in his chest when he does take that step so he does not get the angle he wants. Never take a backward step, for they can do you no good. Lots of head movement on the outside.

Those are general instructions. I don't know exactly what Goldman will teach and expect, though some of the above is highly probable. We know the Rock will be in peerless condition.

A T-rex is hard to tie up from that height, I can visualize that much. Vlad will have to wrap his arms all the way around him as a last recourse, a stinker with judges, who are not likely to play a part anyway. Boos from the 1950's crowd might. A frustrated Rock might even throw a headbutt in the effort to pull loose, which could earn a point deduction, could break Vald of the habit as well, and could also earn Vlad a deduction if he continues the tactic if Rock has already received one.

It is probably a good fight because Vlad will try the oaf dance instead of standing his ground and stepping for angles. But if Rock is succesful with his crowding it will also put the slav grudgingly in a position to be at his most dangerous and his most vulnerable because he can find an angle with one big step unless he chooses to run with that step. So Rock will be at his most dangerous and his most vulnerable when he is successful with his maneuvers. The fight will not go to decision.

In streetfights the vastly undersized man of higher quality sometimes wins. The same thing is possible when two highly trained men have counterbalancing disparities in size and quality. If this counterbalancing disparity in quality does not exist, then neither does Rock's chance to win.

good analysis

[ShoulderRoll]

This matchup isn't a good one for Marciano. He didn't really have the style needed to pull off a win: unlike Dempsey he wasn't fleet of foot or explosive. And he also didn't bob and weave in constant motion like the Manassas Mauler did.

[billeau2]

This matchup isn't a good one for Marciano. He didn't really have the style needed to pull off a win: unlike Dempsey he wasn't fleet of foot or explosive. And he also didn't bob and weave in constant motion like the Manassas Mauler did.

marciano moved differently. you have to go back to Armstrong to see what marciano is up to. His idea is to get through with constant pressure and once at that distance never letting up. Even Dempsey fought in spurts...heck one can watch Mike Tyson at his best to get a pretty fair idea of how Dempsey won his fights. With marciano we would kind of look at Frazier but even frazier was not quite as persistent with the pressure.

What one has to think about is pitbull logic: I hate dog violence of any sort but the analogy is good here, there are a lot of dogs that can cut up a pitball... a lot of dogs are bigger, but a pitbull is a head a neck and a body, all muscle, and when its gets inside, and is determined to do so, its difficult to beat. Marciano could work to get into his range, he was able to deal with guys who could punch, including slipping punches, and doing the same sort of thngs that la Motta often did.

Thats why I don't think this fight is a wash. There was nothing wasted with marciano: thats the advantage to the short armed bulldogs like Armstrong and marciano...Like a pitbull...they may weigh a lot less but there is nothing extra not needed,,,the muscles are in the head, jaw and packed into a small body. With marciano there was a factory for throwing punches, no extra length on the arms, no extra height to maintain, and no extra muscle...just enough to keep doing the same activity relentlessly.

Ask yourself this question: Would any fighter not named Robinson, who BTW lost to la Motta once! be able to keep the rock from comin into his range to fight? Would any puncher who does not move so well be able to stop this process? I wonder.