James Toney; Most overrated fighter of the 90's?

[IronDanHamza]

One thread is praising Jones' resume, the next is you bashing Toney? Jones' 2nd best win?

Which thread praises Jones resume?

Am I in the twilight zone?

[IronDanHamza]

it is obvious you have not watched a lot of James Toney fights..

There was no "Laughingly" about me claiming Toney dominated McCallum the 2nd time. The judges had it 117-110, 117-110.. That equates to a dominant victory. But under your, "I am judge & Jury method" you claim it wasn't dominant. So i must ask you a couple of questions:

1/. Were you sitting ringside at the fight?
2/. If no to above, Are you making your judgement from watching fight on cold-flat screen video evidence?
3/. Have you ever sat ringside at a World Title fight?

I posted up a video link for Toney vs Griffin.. George Foreman said from ringside, "If Griffin won that fight, then Cow's lay eggs"...You chose to ignore this in your posts.

Holyfield vs Toney - You again refused to accept or debate the fact, Holyfield fought on for another 8yrs at a very high level, including two world title fights.. As judge & Jury on the matter, you dismissed it and found James Toney guilty.

You claim Toney tested positive so its a no contest against John Ruiz. You say this so as to take away his dominant victory, which would then scupper your whole agenda. Yet you do not mention or take away Roy Jones Jr. testing positive against Richard Hall, Jones was over 100 times over the limit. Steroids do not improve boxing ability.

You claim Toney's only success at heavyweight was "Holyfields shell".. again ignoring Toney's two excellent efforts against Sam Peter. His two excellent efforts (Toney robbed twice) against Hasim Rahman.

You rubbished his victory at cruiserweight against Jirov. You rubbished his victory over Prince Charles Williams. You rubbished his "dieing breath" last seconds victory over Tim Littles. You rubbished Iran Barkley and Toney's victory over him.. For you to claim otherwise is false!

I asked you to name me another 160lb world champion who has the achievements of James Toney at Heavyweight?.. You couldn't name me one. Then through the name Billy Conn at me. Well that is the laugh of the entire thread.

Question 1 - No.

Question 2 - On a TV

Question 3 - Yes. Most recent being Mayweather vs Berto.

So on one hand you're saying "Toney dominated McCallum" because the judges (ridiculous) cards say so then on the other hand you're going to say Toney was robbed against Griffin x2 and Rahman x2?

Which one is it? Are the judges the be all and end all or not?

No I say it was a no contest because that's exactly what it was, a no contest. A no contest isn't a win. I haven't mentioned Roy Jones fight with Hall but if I did it would be the same thing. Both were caught.

What does is matter why George Foreman said? Firstly he was clearly biased toward Toney and secondly why does it matter when the judges had Griffin winning? That's all that matters right? Infact across two fights not a single judge had Toney as the winner.

I debated the Holyfield fight plenty. Supported my argument plenty.

I claimed it was his only success because it was. Out of Ruiz, Rahman x2, Peter x2 and Holyfield he has one win and that's Holyfield.

I didn't rubbish any of those wins that's a lie. I clearly stated they were good solid wins.

You asked me that, yes. Which I answered. Then I asked you to name me another 4 weight champion that's younger than 26 other than Broner.

No mate the laugh of the thread or maybe even the laugh of the decade is claiming Toney dominated McCallum

[LacedUp]

Question 1 - No.

Question 2 - On a TV

Question 3 - Yes. Most recent being Mayweather vs Berto.

So on one hand you're saying "Toney dominated McCallum" because the judges (ridiculous) cards say so then on the other hand you're going to say Toney was robbed against Griffin x2 and Rahman x2?

Which one is it? Are the judges the be all and end all or not?

No I say it was a no contest because that's exactly what it was, a no contest. A no contest isn't a win. I haven't mentioned Roy Jones fight with Hall but if I did it would be the same thing. Both were caught.

What does is matter why George Foreman said? Firstly he was clearly biased toward Toney and secondly why does it matter when the judges had Griffin winning? That's all that matters right? Infact across two fights not a single judge had Toney as the winner.

I debated the Holyfield fight plenty. Supported my argument plenty.

I claimed it was his only success because it was. Out of Ruiz, Rahman x2, Peter x2 and Holyfield he has one win and that's Holyfield.

I didn't rubbish any of those wins that's a lie. I clearly stated they were good solid wins.

You asked me that, yes. Which I answered. Then I asked you to name me another 4 weight champion that's younger than 26 other than Broner.

No mate the laugh of the thread or maybe even the laugh of the decade is claiming Toney dominated McCallum

Didn't he win vs Ruiz?

[sonnyboyx2]

Question 1 - No.

Question 2 - On a TV

Question 3 - Yes. Most recent being Mayweather vs Berto.

So on one hand you're saying "Toney dominated McCallum" because the judges (ridiculous) cards say so then on the other hand you're going to say Toney was robbed against Griffin x2 and Rahman x2?

Which one is it? Are the judges the be all and end all or not?

No I say it was a no contest because that's exactly what it was, a no contest. A no contest isn't a win. I haven't mentioned Roy Jones fight with Hall but if I did it would be the same thing. Both were caught.

What does is matter why George Foreman said? Firstly he was clearly biased toward Toney and secondly why does it matter when the judges had Griffin winning? That's all that matters right? Infact across two fights not a single judge had Toney as the winner.

I debated the Holyfield fight plenty. Supported my argument plenty.

I claimed it was his only success because it was. Out of Ruiz, Rahman x2, Peter x2 and Holyfield he has one win and that's Holyfield.

I didn't rubbish any of those wins that's a lie. I clearly stated they were good solid wins.

You asked me that, yes. Which I answered. Then I asked you to name me another 4 weight champion that's younger than 26 other than Broner.

No mate the laugh of the thread or maybe even the laugh of the decade is claiming Toney dominated McCallum

What you are saying is "The judges are wrong and you are right"? in Toney v McCallum (2) - is that what you are saying?

Toney vs Rahman (1) the judges had it 114-114, 114-114 Majority draw
Toney vs Rahman (2) Rahman quit before he was knocked out

Show me were you debated Holyfield fighting for 8yrs at World championsahip level, after losing by knock out to Toney?

You have the judges correct for Griffin and "Laugh of the decade" McCallum (2) - which is it?

What does Broner have to do with a 160lb champion at heavyweight?

[ShoulderRoll]

Where do you have him at 140? You've said he's overrated at 140 and that you don't rate him highly at all.

That's fine, but where would you have him then?

Most have him around 4/5. That's not overrating him, that's just having him where his accomplishments deservedly put him.

To me he is below guys like Julio Cesar Chavez, Aaron Pryor, Wilfred Benitez, Niccolino Locche, Antonio Cervantes, Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri.

There are also boxers that had very brief forays in the division who I think were better, like Oscar de la Hoya, Floyd Mayweather, and Manny Pacquiao.

But I swear wasn't trying to single you out for holding the opinion you do. I was just looking for examples of the many people who think highly of Tszyu and it just so happens that your posts came up first.

[BennyST]

To me he is below guys like Julio Cesar Chavez, Aaron Pryor, Wilfred Benitez, Niccolino Locche, Antonio Cervantes, Barney Ross, Tony Canzoneri.

There are also boxers that had very brief forays in the division who I think were better, like Oscar de la Hoya, Floyd Mayweather, and Manny Pacquiao.

But I swear wasn't trying to single you out for holding the opinion you do. I was just looking for examples of the many people who think highly of Tszyu and it just so happens that your posts came up first.

Yeah, agreed, there are better fighters who have gone through 140, but you can't rate them higher there historically for one or two fights. Duran fought there too, but you don't see him rated number 1 on every list for 140ers.

Chavez, Pryor, Locche, Cervantes and even Ross I get. Benitez though? You cannot rate Benitez above Tszyu at 140. He beat Cervantes, made two defences against top tenners and left. That's it. Before that he did literally nothing. Three fights, one good, compared to an entire career.

Canzoneri? Did his best work at lightweight, featherweight and did some good stuff at 140, but not equal to Tszyu.

Don't forget, I'm not rating them head to head..I'm rating them historically based on their accomplishments in that division and Tszyu is clearly above a few of those guys. Tszyu, at 140, is undoubtedly one of the most highly rated guys in history there.

[ShoulderRoll]

You could argue that Benitez beating Cervantes was a more impressive accomplishment than anything Tszyu ever did at the weight.

Who is Kostya's best win really? Miguel Angel Gonzalez? Zab Judah?

Now if you want to argue that he has a deeper resume at 140 than some of these others then I might have to concede that point. But is that alone enough to call him a greater junior welterweight than they were?

[billeau2]

I think bernard Hopkins is way overrated

The dude had too many poor performances

Lost his first fight

Dragged by roy

Rocked and dropped and taken to a draw by mercado

Punked out and quit vs Robert Allen the first time

Beat nothing but scrubs for most of his title reign at middleweight

Outboxed twice vs jermain taylor

Outboxed by Joe Calzaghe

Highly doubt by this thread's standards that hopkins is an atg

Hopkins arguably won the last three fights you mentioned.

[BennyST]

You could argue that Benitez beating Cervantes was a more impressive accomplishment than anything Tszyu ever did at the weight.

Who is Kostya's best win really? Miguel Angel Gonzalez? Zab Judah?

Now if you want to argue that he has a deeper resume at 140 than some of these others then I might have to concede that point. But is that alone enough to call him a greater junior welterweight than they were?

Well yes, of course it is. That's the point I've been arguing the whole time. He's more accomplished at that weight, thus is rated higher. He has a deeper resume, was the unified, undisputed/lineal champion there for a long time and the first since Pryor. That's the whole purpose of rating guys at their weight.

To use Duran again as an example; he lost one fight only at 147, and beat Leonard, Palomino etc. Two HOF/ATGs at that weight. Does that mean he is better than most 147 ATG's that didn't beat Leonard or someone as good? Using that logic would surely mean that Duran would have to be 3rd or 4th greatest 147 pounder ever.

Is he a greater Jr Welter than Pacquiao? Of course he is. Is he a better fighter and ATG than Pac? Absolutely freaking not. That's nuts.

[ShoulderRoll]

If you don't want to take into account how they might have done head to head against each other, and if you go exclusively by resume at the weight, then a stronger argument can be made for Tzyu. I agree.