James Toney; Most overrated fighter of the 90's?

[Barn]

People in this thread are acting like "lacking discipline/motivation/work ethic" is something totally alien when rating a fighter. These intangibles are to be factored in as they contribute to his quality as a fighter. To turn it round and put it on the contrary would you say someone was actually an incredibly great fighter because they had incredible work ethic and discipline but lacked the skills, no.

[IronDanHamza]

ironDan
That's true, he has to be judged for what he was and if you rate him by overall of his career, by legacy, he probably comes short to greatness - although I still believe that in just few years of his peak he made more of an impact than some other guys who are talked about as greats, particular modern ones, throughout their entire career - another thing is that this "what could've been" in James's instance is not just some kind of fantasy. It's something we were able to witness in his best performances. The fighter I saw in first McCallum fight, in particular, I feel was spectacular. Just thinking of this fight makes me think "That guy overrated?! Nah...." .
Generally I see your point although considering how overrated guys like Eubank, Watson or Benn are... you know, even if James is overrated, it at least has some fundaments.

The first McCallum fight is one of the best fights I've ever seen as stated in my op.

But then do we really hear McCallum rated as high as Toney? Not from what I can see. Yet in my eyes McCallum won the second one and very arguably won the first one. Both close so though

McCallum has a better resume, was more dominant, beat better fighters than Toney did and in more dominant ad impressive fashion. Yet Toney seems to get more praise. Thus my point.

Agree with your last point, particularly Eubank. But once again none of those are rated as highly as James Toney is, for the most part.

[robertzimmerman]

You can't be overrated if you knock out Micheal Nunn? I think that logic is very flawed.

I won't dispute it's a great win and one of his few great wins. But it was well well behind on the cards before that KO. It's irrelevant to the result because a KO is a KO and he dug deep and got it but I'll say again it was far far from a dominant win.

As I said in my OP Littles was a decent win but again far from a top level opponent.

I can't name an ATG from the past who doesn't have a single dominant performance in his career over a top level opponent combined with that many poor performances against sub par opponents.

I've never disputed his skills. Of course Toney has skills but as do many other fighters.

He didn't just knock out Nunn with a 'lottery punch' like Rahman did with Lennox. Name me all of the guys who had dominant wins over a prime Nunn?

His win over Littles was more than just decent. He was a good fighter, and he was stopped in 3-4 rounds.

You're entitled to your opinion, but as per my previous post, his fights against Evander, Rahman and Peter, should really put things into perspective and put the debate to bed.

Against Peter:


Height - 5'10

Reach - 72"

Weight - 230 pounds

Age - 38

Number of fights - 77


Just think about the above info for a moment.

An out of shape, former MW champ, who'd had almost 80 fights, fighting top rated HW's at almost 40?

Who else could have survived those guys?

How can he not be an ATG?

If we had a time machine, and we fed some of today's top rated SMW's/LHW's to guys like Rahman and Peter, the majority of those guys would be destroyed.

[IronDanHamza]

He didn't just knock out Nunn with a 'lottery punch' like Rahman did with Lennox. Name me all of the guys who had dominant wins over a prime Nunn?

His win over Littles was more than just decent. He was a good fighter, and he was stopped in 3-4 rounds.

You're entitled to your opinion, but as per my previous post, his fights against Evander, Rahman and Peter, should really put things into perspective and put the debate to bed.

Against Peter:


Height - 5'10

Reach - 72"

Weight - 230 pounds

Age - 38

Number of fights - 77


Just think about the above info for a moment.

An out of shape, former MW champ, who'd had almost 80 fights, fighting top rated HW's at almost 40?

Who else could have survived those guys?

How can he not be an ATG?

If we had a time machine, and we fed some of today's top rated SMW's/LHW's to guys like Rahman and Peter, the majority of those guys would be destroyed.

So you're telling me your reasoning for Toney being an ATG is that he beat a shell of Evander Holyfield and valiantly failed to beat Hasim Rahman and Sam Peter twice? Ok fair enough. I disagree.

No one really had a dominant win over Nunn that's because Nunn was very good but a couple guys looked better than Toney against Nunn.

Again, Littles good fighter yes hardly a top level opponent.

You ask "how is he not an ATG" I've given many reasons but I'll re-list them.

Never beat a top level opponent in dominant fashion.

Resume isn't strong enough.

Struggled/lost to too many sub par opponents.

Combination of all three really.

[billeau2]

Dan

I think you make some good points here is my response.

First off, he wasn't really far behind agaist Nunn. Nunn was winning but Toney was very active that fight and really did seem to follow a strategy of pressing Nunn.

Toney, being a counter puncher did in fact at times play to the strengths of his opposition to get opportunities.

But one could also say that Toney was consistant in this regard, he fought heavyweights the same way as he fought at his prime weight. he beat Rahman when Rahman was in shape by throwing more punches, out working him.

Lets look at Andre Ward. now in the history of boxing there is probably grounds to say that Ward might well wind up in the same general area as Toney when history speaks...Ward dominated his competition but has the opposite problem, he has never shown any range to fight in other divisions...Is this a product of his lack of talent? anymore than Toney, who has not really dominated his comp, but has been able to do very well in several weight classes? or are these just part of the style that make one fighter different from another?

Dominating the comp is a factor in evaluating greatness, but there can be fighters who are exceptional who do not dominate so much as find a way to win. Winky Wright is another one who can pick an opponent to death and win by "a thousand cuts" rather than with a dominant performance. I know about the Trinidad fight, but that was the exception and again, Toney was very succesful fighting up from his weight, not easy to do.

Toney's skills make him exceptional more than the quality of his wins for sure. I don't buy the excuses either, thats on Toney.

[IronDanHamza]

He beat Holyfield with ease and he was in worse shape that Holyfield who we now know was juicing, so that dispels the myth that Holyfield was a "shell". Against RJJ and Prince Charles you said he struggled against Prince and was dominated by RJJ. His personal life was in turmoil at that point and didn't fight to his true potential. No way could RJJ win against a motivated, lean Toney. When Toney was on form he was boxing personified. If anything, he was underrated. The only reason he didn't get the accolades he could have got was himself, not his opponents, he was his biggest enemy. Also, these posts that disaparage boxers like Sugar Ray Leonard and Frasier and so forth are so pointless. What do they accomplish other than show your contempt for men who had the balls to put their health at risk. Your post is just another piece of revisionist "I-know-better" garbage. The fact that you took the time and energy to write all that is pathetic. Hipsters like you disgust me. I bet you wrote it on your iphone, sitting in front of the TV in your smelly underwear thinking you're oh so clever. Die.

Slightly strong. This is a discussion board is it not? Is this not what we're supposed to do when we log in?

To your points;

You say Holyfield was juicing. But as was Toney, no?

I also don't see how that dispels anything, Holyfield clearly showed in his next fight how much he had left I.e next to nothing.

Why do you highlight Prince Charles and Roy Jones specifically? He had worse performances both sides of those fights.

To say "there's no way Jones could beat Toney" I just find preposterous in every way. Jones showed many times that he's a different level to Toney and not just when he was across the ring from him.

"When he was on form" when was he on form? Which fight do you consider an "on form" Toney?

Lastly, how is anything I've said "revisionist"? I didn't say "and I thought this at the time!" because I didn't. I was one of the people that overrated Toney aswell.

[IronDanHamza]

Dan

I think you make some good points here is my response.

First off, he wasn't really far behind agaist Nunn. Nunn was winning but Toney was very active that fight and really did seem to follow a strategy of pressing Nunn.

Toney, being a counter puncher did in fact at times play to the strengths of his opposition to get opportunities.

But one could also say that Toney was consistant in this regard, he fought heavyweights the same way as he fought at his prime weight. he beat Rahman when Rahman was in shape by throwing more punches, out working him.

Lets look at Andre Ward. now in the history of boxing there is probably grounds to say that Ward might well wind up in the same general area as Toney when history speaks...Ward dominated his competition but has the opposite problem, he has never shown any range to fight in other divisions...Is this a product of his lack of talent? anymore than Toney, who has not really dominated his comp, but has been able to do very well in several weight classes? or are these just part of the style that make one fighter different from another?

Dominating the comp is a factor in evaluating greatness, but there can be fighters who are exceptional who do not dominate so much as find a way to win. Winky Wright is another one who can pick an opponent to death and win by "a thousand cuts" rather than with a dominant performance. I know about the Trinidad fight, but that was the exception and again, Toney was very succesful fighting up from his weight, not easy to do.

Toney's skills make him exceptional more than the quality of his wins for sure. I don't buy the excuses either, thats on Toney.

I disagree I thought he was well behind against Nunn. Well behind. It doesn't matter though because he knocked him out and it wasn't lucky in any way but all I'm saying is it was far from dominant.

Well I think Andre Ward is a better fighter than Toney but that's a different argument all together.

I can agree with you there Toney defintely had an abundance of skill but then again so did George Benton but I don't see him being touted as an ATG. Depends on your criteria I suppose. If skills and entertainment is your criteria then I guess he could be.

I still think he's the most overrated of the 90's though (the actual question of the thread)

Toney, Lopez or Lewis IMO.

[Scott9945]

I think so.

Did James Toney ever have an impressive dominant performance over a top opponent in his career? The only two I think that could arguably qualify are Iran Barkley and Vassily Jirov. But on the flipside Barkley is a decent opponent at best and although Toney beat Jirov clearly it was hardly a dominant performance.

A quick look into James Toney's career (not just the 90's)

Turned Pro in 1988, had a string of easy building fights as most pro's do until he fought cagey veteran Sanderline Williams in 1990.

This was a decent step up at the time, the fight was scored a draw. I scored the fight for Toney but it was reasonably close. You could see the difference in experience and despite the unlucky draw it was a good learning fight for Toney and a fight he avenged 3 months later in dominant fashion.

In 1991 he fought Merqui Sosa, undefeated prospect but expected to be an easy fight for the rising potential star Toney. Toney won by split decision, showing signs of struggle against what was supposed to be an easy opponent. I scored the fight for Toney after winning the first half of the fight plus a knockdown. He seemed to fade late and let Sosa back into the fight but the right man won IMO. Still, by no means dominant.

Later that year he fought his best opponent to date and possibly the best win of his career, Micheal Nunn. Nunn exposing many flaws In Toney's game was well ahead in the fight until Toney pulled it out the bag and got a late KO. A great win for Toney but far far from dominant.

His next fight after that he fought Reggie Johnson, IMO a very underrated fighter and very skilled fighter. Toney expected to win but yet again struggling badly, getting dropped and hurt in the second round and IMO losing the fight. Toney was awarded an SD in what was a close fight that could have gone either way, but for my money Johnson did enough to edge it.

Later that year Toney matched up with a great fighter and IMO the greatest Jr MW of all time in Mike McCallum in one of my favourite ever fights. Great back and forth and skills for both men. Very close fight that ended up a draw which IMO could not be fairer as I scored it a draw myself. More people seemed to think Toney edged it but many also felt Mcallum did. Can't argue with the result.

After one of the best fights I've ever seen, Toney's next fight possibly being his worst ever performance against Dave Tiberi, another expectation of an easy fight an alleged "drained" and "out of shape" Toney got gifted a split decision over Tiberi in one of the worst robberies I've personally ever seen. A clear cut win for Tiberi IMO.

Later that same year of 1992 Toney rematched Mike McCallum, the rematch not living up to the first encounter but still a good fight none the less. Much like many Toney fights Toney landing the cleaner flashier work but finding himself getting out worked consistently. The fight was scored for Toney by Majority decision. Once again a very close fight despite the ridiculous wide scorecards. I scored the fight for McCallum but can't argue with the decision.

After the McCallum rematch he fought two solid opponents in Doug DeWitt and Iran Barkley, beating both easily. As we entered 1993 and up until 1994 Toney fought mostly weak opposition outside of Tim Littles and Tony Thornton who were decent/solid wins.

His next fight was Prince Charles Williams who was considered to be a decent test. Despite struggling to dominate the fight he did pull out a KO in the final round.

His next fight against Roy Jones Jr. No need to talk about this fight everyone knows how it went. Toney was dominated every second of every round despite being the betting favourite.

His next fight was with a 14-0 relatively unknown Montel Griffin. Once again Toney falling short in a fight he was expected to win losing an MD. Very close fight that could have gone either way, I had Griffin just edging it.

After back to back loses, Toney fought weak opposition for the remainder of 1995 and 1996, until the rematch with Montel Griffin in 1997.

Griffin won the rematch by UD, however IMO Toney edged it.

Despite arguments for both sides IMO both of these fights were clearly very close and certainly not robberies. Toney once again finding a way to make a fight close and struggling to put on a dominant performance.

His next fight after that was a third fight with McCallum. This time Toney getting a clear decision over the ageing great.

With the momentum from the McCallum win Toney fought Drake Thadzi, once again expecting to be an easy fight against a sub-par opponent but at this point you'd be naive to think any fight is easy for Toney. He went on to lose to Thadzi by MD. A close-ish fight but a fight that Toney certainly lost. Toney had the "out of shape" excuse ready as per usual.

After an extremely disappointing loss to Thadzi, Toney didn't do much from 1997-2003 in which he fought mostly poor opposition until he got his shot at Crusierweight Champ Vassily Jirov.

Toney the betting underdog pulled out what is arguably the best win of his career beating Jirov by UD in a back and forth war. Rivalling McCallum 1 in one of the best fights of his career and certainly one of his best wins. However despite the goodwin it was still far from dominant despite clearly being ahead on the cards.

His next fight he moved up to Heavyweight to beat the shell Evander Holyfield in a fight that IMO should never have happened.

After this there's not much of note to talk about with Toney other than a failed drug test vs John Ruiz aswell as two valiant efforts vs Sam Peter.

As you can see running themes in James Toney's career are struggling with sub-par opposition and being incapable of putting on a dominant performance.

Can you name a single dominant and impressive win over a top level opponent? I honestly can't.

He failed to dominate or clearly beat Tiberi, McCallum (first 2), Johnson, Griffin, Thadzi and struggled with S.Williams and Sosa.

Touching again on his best wins, Nunn and Jirov. He didn't like dominant in either fight, especially Nunn.

People say Roy Jones fought weak opponents yet Jones blasted out Sosa in 2 rounds, Griffin in one round, dominated and shut out Reggie Johnson. These are "weak opponents" Toney struggled with and arguably lost to.

IMO Toney in the 90's went 0-1 with Reggie Johnson, 0-1 with Dave Tiberi, went 1-1 with Montel Griffin, 0-1-1 with McCallum, 0-1 with Roy Jones and 0-1 with Drake Thazdi.

Best wins being Nunn, Grffin 2 and Barkley.

If we look at his resume for the 90's specifically is it impressive? It's littered with poor performances against sub par opponents and he struggled or lost against every good fighter he faced.

What's your view? Is Toney overrated? If he's considered an ATG then certainly, IMO.

While I have much respect for his skills, put me on the list for Toney being overrated, especially in boxing forums.

[Suckmedry]

If you actually have some in ring experience, you then appreciate how skillful Toney was and how great he is.

Inconsistent? Yes. Unfulfilled potential? Certainly.

Overrated? No way.

All irondanhandjob knows how to do is GARGLE DEM NUTZ BOY!!coz DEY isn't clean yet

[IronDanHamza]

While I have much respect for his skills, put me on the list for Toney being overrated, especially in boxing forums.

That's exactly how I feel in a nutshell.

I love watching Toney fight just like I love watching Ian Napa fight.

I just don't see the greatness though.

(Not comparing Toney to Napa)