Is the "Old vs New" debate unique to boxing?

[Scott9945]

yes I am. I am mocking his tendency to do the same by imitating his manner of refutatation. But yes technically it is an opinion that Elroy is an idiot.

Yes, just like it is an opinion that Liston would have beaten Patterson if they had a third fight.

[billeau2]

The FACT that you lie constantly juggy really isn't an accusation.
Your statements are on the forum are you now retracting them?
If you want to be truthful I'm sure your dad and uncle and Wlads sparring partner would appreciate not being associated with your lies!

Are you dis*****g your comments (lies)?


My comments about the young man I trained in boxing who was from "full contact" was directed to bill. Not sure why you thought it was directed to you but you are a defensive fellow. Must be from being a chronic liar .
Ray

And it can be a little thing that nobody notices, and then someone does and it changes the fighter in a big way.

My dad when he boxed in the Marine Corps was never very good but he was fighting a guy at lightweight who he was having trouble with...so as he told the story he went back to the corner and the cornerman told him something like "everytime the guy throws a jab, move this way and throw this." my dad starts lighting the guy up the next round! he told me he never could figure out WHY but by listening to the guy he was competative in the fight.

[billeau2]

Yes, just like it is an opinion that Liston would have beaten Patterson if they had a third fight.

yeah

[billeau2]

The Klitchkos have some judo backround ,Jeremy Williams was a judo practioner who actually threw Lewis to the ground when it got heated in a sparring session , Lewis himself has wrestling experience .... any smart trainer will expose these types of controlling arts , for balance ,as you saw the vid i posted awhile back of a wrestler taking down Jack Johnson easily even though JJ was a master clincher in boxing he was a fish out of water. While clinching was much more allowed in the old days ,it has evolved since then as its a science now as there are many clinching styles its no longer simple dirty boxing of hit what you can ,fighters know when and where the best chance to hit you now ...from Ali to Klitchko i think fighters started to use it more as a science ,not just a tactic .

Fighters are more well rounded in different styles, thats true. You go to a gym now and there are inevitably guys who do Jiu Jitsu, boxing, Thai, kickboxing, etc.

Some of these teachers are good, some not so good. I don't see modern fighters doing much on the inside frankly. I don't know if I would characterize it as an evolution with the caveat that certainly a fighter today has more exposure to different styles. is this good? Well it was for MMA, but how good is it beyond setting a standard where, if a fighter just has ground, or stand up, they will not be able to overcome a deficiency in the other department? This was a good development, it made MMA guys more well rounded fighters.

But Juggy look at how things work in this case...its kind of like fashion where things come in and out of style...When MMA started we were all told "no high kicks!" Now people are getting creamed with good kicks because fighters have reincorporated these effectively. Is this evolution? i bet that when a whole generation of MMA guys stop using chokes, there will be a reintroduction (I am exxagerating).

One thing to also keep in mind is that quite a bit of the standing grappling in Japanese arts totally depends upon having a Gi on.

[Ray Corso]

Nite boys, hoping the Gulf waters are calmer and I can get out a few miles where the big fish live!
Taking delivery on a new/old bike tomorrow afternoon to add to my small collection, I've owned quite a few over the years.

Don't hurt the kids to hard, they are morons you know!

Ray

[Anthony342]

yes I am. I am mocking his tendency to do the same by imitating his manner of refutatation. But yes technically it is an opinion that Elroy is an idiot.

Not really. One only has to read the posts for evidence.

[juggernaut666]

Fighters are more well rounded in different styles, thats true. You go to a gym now and there are inevitably guys who do Jiu Jitsu, boxing, Thai, kickboxing, etc.

Some of these teachers are good, some not so good. I don't see modern fighters doing much on the inside frankly. I don't know if I would characterize it as an evolution with the caveat that certainly a fighter today has more exposure to different styles. is this good? Well it was for MMA, but how good is it beyond setting a standard where, if a fighter just has ground, or stand up, they will not be able to overcome a deficiency in the other department? This was a good development, it made MMA guys more well rounded fighters.

But Juggy look at how things work in this case...its kind of like fashion where things come in and out of style...When MMA started we were all told "no high kicks!" Now people are getting creamed with good kicks because fighters have reincorporated these effectively. Is this evolution? i bet that when a whole generation of MMA guys stop using chokes, there will be a reintroduction (I am exxagerating).

One thing to also keep in mind is that quite a bit of the standing grappling in Japanese arts totally depends upon having a Gi on.

The fighters today are more rangy.guys like Joshua and fury are not bad however in this dept.Also Arias who is going to be a top fighter within 2 yearsas well as Povetkin who is there now...I think most taller Hw's will fight at long range for the most part....guys like Lewis were more talented overall as was Bowe on inside fighting..thats the style these days...much like the 80's.As far as MMa well the rules are slightly altered now that gives the strikers a better chance to win over the grapplers...if you keep the same rules as the old ones or at least less force stand up...the grappler will almost always win against the striker who isn't as good as a grappler.I think wearing the gi gives the strikers better chance of keeping it on the feet ,because you have something to hold onto...Royce got away with it early on...notice he took it off later.

[Anthony342]

The fighters today are more rangy.guys like Joshua and fury are not bad however in this dept.Also Arias who is going to be a top fighter within 2 yearsas well as Povetkin who is there now...I think most taller Hw's will fight at long range for the most part....guys like Lewis were more talented overall as was Bowe on inside fighting..thats the style these days...much like the 80's.As far as MMa well the rules are slightly altered now that gives the strikers a better chance to win over the grapplers...if you keep the same rules as the old ones or at least less force stand up...the grappler will almost always win against the striker who isn't as good as a grappler.I think wearing the gi gives the strikers better chance of keeping it on the feet ,because you have something to hold onto...Royce got away with it early on...notice he took it off later.

Yeah Royce took it off after Sakuraba used the gi against him, pulling it over his head, even trying to pull down his pants. Guy was a real showman in there. I can't believe he came back to fight in his late '40s on New Year's Eve and that Royce is actually competing next month.

I feel the Pride rules gave strikers an even better chance and now the Global Rules used by One Championship are even better, allowing even more strikes on the ground.

[billeau2]

Yeah Royce took it off after Sakuraba used the gi against him, pulling it over his head, even trying to pull down his pants. Guy was a real showman in there. I can't believe he came back to fight in his late '40s on New Year's Eve and that Royce is actually competing next month.

I feel the Pride rules gave strikers an even better chance and now the Global Rules used by One Championship are even better, allowing even more strikes on the ground.

As Juggy said and what your post indicates...there is a constant need to make it more equal for strikers. it will be interesting to see what they come up with as things develop past our generation.

I always tell people this: If i am blind, deaf and dumb (mute) the minute I put a hand on your body, with a thumb I can control you...To the grappler's lexicon that hand is two points of balance, the ground and my body acting on your body through the hand... With that hand I can feel when you want to punch, where you move, and when you try to move my body.

With a strike I can have all my senses working, and still, I have to move my hand and time it to strike, and every bit you move will minimize the impact and even make me miss.

its just so much harder for the puncher to succeed from a purely striking capability. Now when you combine the two things change somewhat, but the truth is the avantage, all else being equal, goes to the grappler.

[Humean]

I follow several other sports, but none with the same passion that I do boxing... so I'm wondering:

Do you guys know of any other sport, where hardcore fans get into heated discussions on internet sites like this - about whether or not the old-timers were better than the best we have today? Or is boxing the only sport, where we see this?

It definitely seems the strongest in boxing. I can't think of any other sport where so many people suggest with intense seriousness that a sportsman from the 30s or 40s, (or even earlier for the craziest of the crazy) is superior to the best from the 1970s onwards. I have seen the odd lunatic who thinks George Best was better than Cristiano Ronaldo but they are usually confined to care-homes.