Is the "Old vs New" debate unique to boxing?

[Bundana]

Logic has nothng to do with "views" it applies at all times in all places. So for example: Maybe you like the color purple but on mars the color purple is hated...that is a perception of sorts.

But 2+2 will always = 4 here, and on the other side of the universe. You are confusing so many kinds of knowledge but to think that people are in some way better, or worse, as a whole would mean that your IQ has to be really low...thats the only explanation for reaching a conclusion like you did.

The Socratic dialogues are still used today by people...the logic is not "better, or worse" it is relevance. For example the argument for patriotism is taught in military academies from the Socratic dialogue "the apology" because it is relevant...not better or worse.

your an idiot and I think it must be dawning on you that this statement is a fact.

Aren't you making exactly the same mistake here, that you accuse Elroy of? It's not really a fact, that Elroy is an idiot... it's just an opinion!

[Welsh Jon]

I completely agree. I remember seeing this fighter in the late 1960's and 1970's called Roberto Duran, and he really exemplified what you are talking about. He had no 'science' to his boxing at all. Ezzard Charles also highlights this in particular.

No feints, no head movement, no upper body movement, no aggressive counter punching, no transition from defense to offence...Duran basically just waded in with his face and head butted the guy. Anyone even making the hint of a suggestion that he might be the perfect example of the sweet science in its most ferocious form should be wittily and unmercifully mocked.

If I look at today's lightweights, I see fighters that are scientific in their boxing in comparison. Their feinting for instance...Duran just had no feints. Just didn't know what they were or even how to use them! Whereas today...today! Well, the lightweights feinting the feint out of each other is amazing to watch. In fact, they've gotten so good at it in comparison it almost looks as if none of them use it.

Footwork and upper body movement, again we could talk about Duran lacking all this in comparison to today's fighters but let's talk about that short ass bum Pep. No footwork, no head movement. A pure face first club fighter. What about Benton and Locche?! El! Oh! El!

When you look at how much more evolved this generations champions like Gatti, Margarito, Hatton etc are, it really exemplifies and highlights your excellent point.

Nowadays, you see champions like Wlad Klitschko who are typical of this evolution you talk about. They have taken everything good from the past fighters, and have developed all their best skills and honed them into the much more evolved fighters you see today while leaving behind all their weaknesses. He basically has the offence of Louis, the movement and speed of Ali, the aggression of Tyson and the defense of Walcott...He has a huge range of skills and styles he can draw upon that previous fighters didn't have. He doesn't look stiff, panicked and flaily when someone throws a punch at him, he doesn't freeze up when someone uses basic footwork against him, rather than just walking into him, and he has a huge arsenal and variety of styles in his style bank to choose from, rather than just a clinch, grab, jab, grab game and if that gets taken away then he has nothing to fall back on...I mean, as if anyone would ever say something like that is the pinnacle of evolution from all the greatness that has come before.

Just look at the science in this offensive flurry from the current heavyweight champion of the world. The best fighter on the planet today. The pinnacle of our sport's history combined into one fighter. This is the combination of Tyson, Louis, Frazier, Foreman, Dempsey all rolled into one refined, evolved, peak of offensive skill and excellence. Watch and marvel. Go to 3.40.

I fear your sarcasm may be lost on some people.

Wilder was the first person I thought of when contemplating how much boxing has "evolved" too.

[juggernaut666]

One has to take a fighter's condition on a case by case basis. Most people do not understand the point you made about Oxygen efficiency. This is the reason why a large guy in perfect physical condition will probably never win the Boston Marathon.

Grappling effectively (as you know) is a lot about efficiency. And again...some of the old timers showed tremendous skills in this department while others, not so much....

An interesting aside Juggy. Danzen Ryu master Henry Oasaku and his group had jiu jitsu matches with boxers from around 1910 and onward. There was borrowing to some degree, this included wrestlers, so its possible there were wrestling and jiu Jitsu techniques acquired by boxers. Judo also. I have an old Japanese manual originally written when the Portugese came in around the 16 hundreds and...some of the Japanese KoRyu sword schools adapted techniques from the thrusting/stabbing attack of the Spanish styled fencers who were the Portugese fighting men.

So there was probably some borrowing, at least up until the second world war, but in Brazil Judo was practiced and developed at this time.

I just wonder how much borrowing actually found its way into the ring because I have noticed some guys using technique that looks like Judo based standing grappling.

The Klitchkos have some judo backround ,Jeremy Williams was a judo practioner who actually threw Lewis to the ground when it got heated in a sparring session , Lewis himself has wrestling experience .... any smart trainer will expose these types of controlling arts , for balance ,as you saw the vid i posted awhile back of a wrestler taking down Jack Johnson easily even though JJ was a master clincher in boxing he was a fish out of water. While clinching was much more allowed in the old days ,it has evolved since then as its a science now as there are many clinching styles its no longer simple dirty boxing of hit what you can ,fighters know when and where the best chance to hit you now ...from Ali to Klitchko i think fighters started to use it more as a science ,not just a tactic .

[Ray Corso]

I trained a young man back in the late 70's who came from a "full contact" back ground (heavyweight). My understanding of the group he fought with was a standing only contact with kicks above the waist. I don't think kicks to the legs was allowed.

The fellow was an extremely hard puncher and adapted farely well to boxing except for his over all balance. He struggled with bring a 70 to 20 percent weight distribution forward! He was slightly to wide at the feet all from being used to lifting and kicking with his lead foot! It was a hard habit to break and he actually lost some fights because of it!

Without proper boxing balance your in trouble in a boxing ring. Most trainers begin with stance & balance and only work on that until the student grasps the importance of them.
It's pretty easy to demonstrate why their so important hahahaha.....

Ray

you can see it in Klitz stance immediately, why and how he leans back and is off balance when he does! Back him up and he's in trouble!

[juggernaut666]

I trained a young man back in the late 70's who came from a "full contact" back ground (heavyweight). My understanding of the group he fought with was a standing only contact with kicks above the waist. I don't think kicks to the legs was allowed.

The fellow was an extremely hard puncher and adapted farely well to boxing except for his over all balance. He struggled with bring a 70 to 20 percent weight distribution forward! He was slightly to wide at the feet all from being used to lifting and kicking with his lead foot! It was a hard habit to break and he actually lost some fights because of it!

Without proper boxing balance your in trouble in a boxing ring. Most trainers begin with stance & balance and only work on that until the student grasps the importance of them.
It's pretty easy to demonstrate why their so important hahahaha.....

Ray

you can see it in Klitz stance immediately, why and how he leans back and is off balance when he does! Back him up and he's in trouble!

WOW stunning insight ray, no wonder you go off accusing everyone else of lying and being unknowledgable in boxing compared to yourself ,who would ever know the basic principles of boxing like you just described?...good stuff!!!!!!!!

[rightsideup]

The Klitchkos have some judo backround ,Jeremy Williams was a judo practioner who actually threw Lewis to the ground when it got heated in a sparring session , Lewis himself has wrestling experience .... any smart trainer will expose these types of controlling arts , for balance ,as you saw the vid i posted awhile back of a wrestler taking down Jack Johnson easily even though JJ was a master clincher in boxing he was a fish out of water. While clinching was much more allowed in the old days ,it has evolved since then as its a science now as there are many clinching styles its no longer simple dirty boxing of hit what you can ,fighters know when and where the best chance to hit you now ...from Ali to Klitchko i think fighters started to use it more as a science ,not just a tactic .

can you expand on what type of wrestling experience Lewis has without knowing his history well I assume this is prior to his boxing career......thanks in advance

[billeau2]

So just to recap... I showed un-controversially how this Socratic statement must be false.. And you rebut in the face of all reason to hold it to be true..

Socrates statement was in itself the perception and my statement, the actual fact.. Obviously!!

But I am the idiot right???

Your not even doing a good job of selling the nutbaggery anything in the intelligence department..

And you are the BEST they have to offer???

PPPPlease!!!

NO you showed that you do not understand logical thinking. Again look up what a fact is!!! What is this best bs? Im not the best at anything in this section which is why I like to listen to other posters who have been around boxing for a while. Something you might try one day.

[Ray Corso]

The FACT that you lie constantly juggy really isn't an accusation.
Your statements are on the forum are you now retracting them?
If you want to be truthful I'm sure your dad and uncle and Wlads sparring partner would appreciate not being associated with your lies!

Are you dis*****g your comments (lies)?


My comments about the young man I trained in boxing who was from "full contact" was directed to bill. Not sure why you thought it was directed to you but you are a defensive fellow. Must be from being a chronic liar .
Ray

[billeau2]

He is dumb, Ray. All one has to do is introduce classic words of wisdom that are of interest to all mankind to highlight this shallowness, as he rushes in where angels fear to tread. He missed the point of the quote, he missed the point of the thread and he missed the quote's relation to the thread.

The power of the quote is in realizing the perspective from which it comes is universal, the perspective of an elder, the conservative perspective, has always been there, predating the youthful perspective by exactly and merely one generation. The quote does exactly what good poetry does--it connects us to men of times long past by showing they were identical to us in many ways we count as our most human traits. The clash of age and youth is very old, after all. It is a human universal. Cronus overthrew his father Uranus, and then proceeded to eat his own children to prevent his own overthrow. This myth recognized that the overthrower is usually no better than the overthrown, and that truth belongs to neither, and there is no ladder of moral ascent from one generation to the next.

Elroy's puerile attempt to extrapolate backwards from each generation and thereby show that mankind has gotten better because their elders were always wrong, is a piece of real scholarship, isn't it? He holds all other events in the world still, while he does his extrapolation, as if only what elders and youngsters said at dinner mattered.

The scholarly conclusion is again: NUTBAGGERY. The man really had ought to be teaching at a major university with that kind of intellectual equipment. His focus and power of thought are unbelievable.

Ah, well. I don't mind manhandling the boy from time to time for the good of the public cause.

Wow!! You said it better in one post than I have been trying to do while Shannon Brigging this turd from down under! I wish Australia would take him back but they won't... Once he was down the toilet they told the tiddy bowl man if he let that piece of turd back in he would get kneecapped...And while the tiddy bowl man is equipped to deal with a flush, or two, and stay sailing...he values his kneecaps.

[billeau2]

Aren't you making exactly the same mistake here, that you accuse Elroy of? It's not really a fact, that Elroy is an idiot... it's just an opinion!

yes I am. I am mocking his tendency to do the same by imitating his manner of refutatation. But yes technically it is an opinion that Elroy is an idiot.