Who could beat 86-89 Tyson?

[StarshipTrooper]

None of that is relevant.

Doesn't matter what Holyfield could've done, he didn't do it.

The only known quantity of Holyfield as a HW is when he was a HW and that is not in 86. So who cares besides people who make silly excuses?

Tyson in those years, in my opinion, would lose to any ATG who could take a punch and dish it. Because June 1990 Mike Tyson is NO DIFFERENT than the one who beat Spinks.

It's like the same clowns who claim Canelo wasn't in his prime fighting Floyd. Dude was 23 with 40 fights, he was in his f/ucking prime.

I'd put Tyson's prime ending when he went to prison. I though his two fights with Ruddock were his career best fights, as he twice beat a good opponent who stood up to him and punched back.

[Willie Pep 229]

None of that is relevant.

Doesn't matter what Holyfield could've done, he didn't do it.

The only known quantity of Holyfield as a HW is when he was a HW and that is not in 86. So who cares besides people who make silly excuses?

Tyson in those years, in my opinion, would lose to any ATG who could take a punch and dish it. Because June 1990 Mike Tyson is NO DIFFERENT than the one who beat Spinks.

It's like the same clowns who claim Canelo wasn't in his prime fighting Floyd. Dude was 23 with 40 fights, he was in his f/ucking prime.

I agree regarding Tyson in 90 being no different than Tyson in 89 but the word prime is funny.

There is a biological prime that all men occur but fighters have peaks as well, and being in their peak years doesn't necessarily encompass all their prime years.

I'm being vague . . . I would say that Csnelo, last year was a much better fighter than the one that face Money.

He is peaking right now and while he was indeed in his biological prime with Mayweather those years won't prove out be his best years.

Prime is difficult to define and assess. Does it mean not held back by physical limitations or dies it mean being at your peak?

[F l i c k e r]

I'd put Tyson's prime ending when he went to prison. I though his two fights with Ruddock were his career best fights, as he twice beat a good opponent who stood up to him and punched back.

I can agree with that. Because a 6 years prison sentence is a long time out of the profession and lifestyle. I agree with the Ruddock wins as well. That's why I think an ATG could take prime Mike. Ruddock was good but never in that ATG area of boxing talents.

[F l i c k e r]

I agree regarding Tyson in 90 being no different than Tyson in 89 but the word prime is funny.

There is a biological prime that all men occur but fighters have peaks as well, and being in their peak years doesn't necessarily encompass all their prime years.

I'm being vague . . . I would say that Csnelo, last year was a much better fighter than the one that face Money.

He is peaking right now and while he was indeed in his biological prime with Mayweather those years won't prove out be his best years.

Prime is difficult to define and assess. Does it mean not held back by physical limitations or dies it mean being at your peak?

True as well. Good points.

Also, some athletes manage a greater length of time at those heights than others. Canelo certainly is probably showing one of the longer sustained primes in prizefighting. Compared to say Zab Judah or something.

More of a concave output rather than an acute angle 'peak' so to speak.

[StarshipTrooper]

True as well. Good points.

Also, some athletes manage a greater length of time at those heights than others. Canelo certainly is probably showing one of the longer sustained primes in prizefighting. Compared to say Zab Judah or something.

More of a concave output rather than an acute angle 'peak' so to speak.

I would consider "peak" to be their best year, while "prime" would be a sustained 5-10 year stretch.

[them_apples]

Sure. No man is invincible. And no man lives up to his own public's mega mania, either, which just lives on and on.

Bigger men such as Bonecrusher who were not ultra-talented, were able to partially nullify Tyson's effectiveness. The ugly game plan Smith and others layed out would have been perfect for Jack Johnson against Tyson. Johnson would have fought a similar game plan much better IMO. Great opponents would have hit Tyson more.

If I had to lay my life savings down, I would pick Ali, Foreman and Johnson over Mike immediately. Liston, Lewis, Dempsey and Holmes would get my nod, as well.

Tyson is unlikely to KO these gentlemen quickly. They are taking him to the trenches where they are strong.

Tyson was a great heavyweight. You can be great and be overrated at the same time. His style was and still is so entertaining that it can confuse the issue slightly. Tyson could put B-level fighters out faster and prettier than anyone. The guys he KO'd for championships were not bona fide heavyweight champions of the ilk we consider worthy of heavyweight crowns except from divided, corrupt boxing organizations vying and scrambling for dollars and prestige. He dispatched them well enough to prove that he was of that higher class.

The thing is, others are in that class, too. Tyson is not in a class by himself. In my opinion, no fighter in history has shown himself to be in a class by himself when compared to the other greatest fighters in history. They were all vulnerable, none was perfect.

Great post **** on

[them_apples]

I agree regarding Tyson in 90 being no different than Tyson in 89 but the word prime is funny.

There is a biological prime that all men occur but fighters have peaks as well, and being in their peak years doesn't necessarily encompass all their prime years.

I'm being vague . . . I would say that Csnelo, last year was a much better fighter than the one that face Money.

He is peaking right now and while he was indeed in his biological prime with Mayweather those years won't prove out be his best years.

Prime is difficult to define and assess. Does it mean not held back by physical limitations or dies it mean being at your peak?

honestly though, Canelo is more seasoned now and bigger, I don’t actually think he's drastically any better. Hes got a bit more savvy, but his competition has taken a nose dive since fighting GGG. Up until then he was winning but not soundly. Ggg, Lara and Mayweather were all very difficult pick em fights.

he crushed All his opponents after that (jacobs did alright) because they were simply at a much lower level. Even Kov with his court and drinking problems was a cherry pick at lhw, but probably the only sliver of competition he faced due to the move up in weight.

the reason Mayweather dominated him (yeah dominated for once, won every single round) was because Canelo is too tight and muscle bound, a keen fighter like Floyd sees all his punches because he telegraphs badly but hides it with speed. It gets even worse as his tires, so hes learned to take breaks in the middle rounds and catch his inexperienced opponent’s late with a quick speed and pace change up. Hes not a bad fighter and his defense is nice, but really is very overated. And actually against all time, possibly one of the most overated ever, because I wouldnt pick him over any A+ fighter in history and a whole bunch of B class fighters.

had the Floyd that fought Oscar got in with Canelo, it would have been an even more one sided affair. Esp if they opted for 8 oz over 10, which is a huge handicap for a small guy like Floyd. The biggest hurdle a smaller fighter deals with moving up is his oponents ability to take his punch and possibly not respect him. Its not so much the size or even strength, those play smaller roles, as does power since quicker guys can avoid shots easier. But if the bigger fighter has no respect for his power it goes downhill fast regardless of skill. See Ali vs Foster. Foster is a good boxer and is coming from lhw so he gives a boxer like Ali some trouble because Ali is usually the faster guy and boxers heavier slower men. Eventually Ali figures hes just stronger than him and decides to almost brawl with foster, ended the fight pretty soon after.

[QueensburyRules]

honestly though, Canelo is more seasoned now and bigger, I don’t actually think he's drastically any better. Hes got a bit more savvy, but his competition has taken a nose dive since fighting GGG. Up until then he was winning but not soundly. Ggg, Lara and Mayweather were all very difficult pick em fights..

- - Ignoring drivel about TBE TUE 51-0 supposed domination with most of his title fights in the most corrupt boxing jurisdiction in the US, GGG was the only difficult pickem fight.

Lady Lara? Please don't embarrass us wif sissy talk. When Canelo had turned blue on the scales at 152, the l'l floydy fight was a slam dunk as long as Bayless would interfere with Canelo who at 165lbs on fight night, was contractually 10lb short of his normal 175 lb rehydration, a double catchweight. Don't fergit, Oscar had been whisked off to a cushy rehab center out of contact the day before the fight.

[edgarg]

muhhamad ali,george foreman,joe frazier.earnie shavers

Personally I don't think anyone could have. Foreman was too stodgy, and would either have been stopped after absorbing huge punishment, or losing every round. Tyson was too fast, too defensively excellent for Foreman to even hit him, unless by accident

Ali had too many defensive faults .When he pulled straight back from a punch Tyson would have been on top of him like a Doberman. And Ali could be KD.

Shavers was a very average boxer with a heavy punch. the question would have been "could he land it?...And if he could, Tyson then, had a rock solid jaw. and never even looked like being KD, until the Douglas fight. And I doubt that Shavers had a heavier punch than the 6'4" Douglas with an 83" reach..in the best fight of his life. Shaver's best wins were a KO over Ken Norton, who had a suspect jaw, and Jimmy Ellis for whom it was his 8th loss.

[edgarg]

I agree regarding Tyson in 90 being no different than Tyson in 89 but the word prime is funny.

There is a biological prime that all men occur but fighters have peaks as well, and being in their peak years doesn't necessarily encompass all their prime years.

I'm being vague . . . I would say that Csnelo, last year was a much better fighter than the one that face Money.

He is peaking right now and while he was indeed in his biological prime with Mayweather those years won't prove out be his best years.

Prime is difficult to define and assess. Does it mean not held back by physical limitations or dies it mean being at your peak?

When Alvarez fought Mayweather he was only 23, Although he'd had 40 fioghts he was still learning and NOWHERE near his prime. He never had a real amateur career. Started boxing age 13, turned pro aged 15.

Of course Mayweather knew all this otherwise he wouldn't have fought him. Alvarez was green.