Who was faster Tyson or Ali?

[juggernaut666]

Except Ali was staggering Foreman throughout the fight with combinations off the ropes and every punch he landed made him back up a bit...Foreman didn't just fall over himslef at the knockdown too, you know... Chris Byrd could never do that to Foreman.

There's also other evidence of Alis power... Stopping Rigo Bonavena with a single left hook, he was the only fighter to ever stop him. Also pretty much finished Ron Lyle with a single right hand counter...knocked down Cleveland Williams with a 1-2 off the backfoot...his power was fine. An average hitter but he could get anyones respect.

Ali never staggered foreman,who was falling over the ropes with the sloppy accuracy ,any one else that thinks otherwise would be lying...up until the stoppage did Ali then go on total offense off the ropes. Staggered ,give me a round foreman was staggered? You cant ,never happened until the last round,and everyone klnows it was because of Foremans stamaina not alis power.


Ali had decent power,but the guys he was fighting he should be able to k.o,in retro spect he is far from a power puncher . He usuall tired out his opponets first...this is not related to punching power.

[Elroy1]

Ali never staggered foreman,who was falling over the ropes with the sloppy accuracy ,any one else that thinks otherwise would be lying...up until the stoppage did Ali then go on total offense off the ropes. Staggered ,give me a round foreman was staggered? You cant ,never happened until the last round,and everyone klnows it was because of Foremans stamaina not alis power.


Ali had decent power,but the guys he was fighting he should be able to k.o,in retro spect he is far from a power puncher . He usuall tired out his opponets first...this is not related to punching power.

Your post requires no qualiification, and it irrefutale.

Ali's power was ok for the age- e outweighed 70% of opponents and outtalled nearly aLL of them! Rememer.

[Pugilist_Spec]

Foreman was IRON CHINNED only in the 90's!

In the 70's he was SUSPECT chinned.

He was KD's y not only Ali it also Young and CRUISER featherifst and Lyle, below post 90's standards for a "puncher".

Ali was demonstratably an ABSOLUTE featherfist, bottome 3 of all time out of all 100 champs to date. That not just bad, that's REAL bad.

Juggernaut summed up other stuff concisely.

Easy news.

Your man was the most manufactured boxer in history. Makes Wilder look legit!

LMAO

Foreman was a victim of hallucination-inducing dehydration for the Young fight, and we've already concluded that Ali was far from a featherfist you moron

Foreman to this date rates Lyle as the hardest puncher he ever fought, above Tommy Morrison, the never-been that you and your fellow spastic HW-bloggers ****stroke to no end.

Also, before you even attempt to use your obtuse HW-blogger logic let me stop you right here and tell you:

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE THAT PUTTING ON 30 POUNDS OF FAT GIVES YOU A BETTER CHIN. Zero, null.

A natural 230 pounder is going to have a better chin than a natural 200 pounder, due a bigger and thicker skeletal structure and natural frame, but there is zero empirical evidence that putting on excess weight on your natural frame gives you a better chin. NONE!!! 90s and 70s Foreman had the same chin.

[Zaroku]

Ali's "prime" was when he was of a prime fighting age, when he performed his best, when he fought the best opponents, when he was heftiest and most athletic and when he fought his best opponents (1974).

Ali stopped Foreman from some of the most unusual circumstances ever encountered. SOME of which are attributable to Foreman himself (gameplan crap), MOST of which to circumstance (3rd world atmosphere, Forem,anc held as prisoner and not allowed to train for months, loosened ropes, rumours of poisoning etc.) and then Ali, executes the dumbest gamepan ever done by a champion boxer and wins.. I'd call that LUCKY. This is a case of an unrepeateble win, hence why Ali ducked Foreman for the rest of his life.

Foreman was the best boxer of the 70's. It's kind of like if Ray Austin beat Wlad. WE all know Wlad is better really!



Because Byrd fought monsters and Ali fought midgets. Byrd STOPPED guys bigger than Ali could UD! And purely by math, Byrds real KO ratio is 50% and Ali's is opnly 33%, and this is FAVOURED to ALi since Byrd fought the better opponents!



Ali had fast hands, nobody doubts that. But he has a weak chin in relevant terms, and a weak punch in ANY terms and in terms of modern cruiser is nothing special in even handspeed.

Tyson fired heavy shots, some jabs to get inside, then he unloaded high torque shots very quickly. He got leverage on his punches. Ali mixed speed, and power shots, moving forward, backward, and off the ropes.

I don't think Ali is the greatest HW ever.

[/QUOTE]

Like your determination, but doubt that this mathematics you speak of encompasses The Physics of a power punch.

F= ma
But a punch is not a completely linear application of force.
Ali stopped big George, but big George lifted Frazier off the canvas with shots.

I will refrain from a Physics discussion and return to the topic at hand!

Fast Hands. Ali or Tyson?

Jabs Ali
Head removers Tyson

Both were fast.

[billeau2]

So, you obviously did not watch the fight or the knockout sequence -- so what am I to conclude? Do you want to have a real discussion or just pull stuff out of your ass? Also, the video is good quality.

Also, you are comparing apples and oranges. Tyson punching a bag is not comparable in any way (or hardly any way) with a real fight. I ask you to show me something comparable by Tyson in a REAL FIGHT.

Put your money where your mouth is or go live in your fantasy world.

Finally, I am perfectly willing to be convinced that you are correct; just show me some evidence. (I am a lawyer, and I guess it is a prejudice of mine to rely on evidence.)

There is also something very interesting in the London-Ali sequence. Check the last punch of the sequence and note how Ali articulates his wrist to impact the punch at a different, downward angle. I studied some with a Tai Chi martial artist (not a clown either--but a killer fighter) and he told me that the ability to change the location of the fist at the moment of impact and adjust to the target is not easy to do at all. I am not sure if Tyson had this ability. Help me out here; maybe he did (again, evidence please).

The ability you speak of is one of the diffences involving fighting with a fist ungloved...more accurately the hand as a whole, which is an instrument that can be like the persian swordmaster who eligently cuts a silk cloth in half, a precision instrument, or, like a berserker with a haliberd, a hammer.

Ali had a real respect and love for martial arts. He got a lot of his approach from martial artists, and indeed he had a method of punching that often involved using distinct angles.

Why is angle relevent? interesting question...If you look at an untrained fighter he will generally want to hit like many primates, raining blows DOWN on the body where we have protection, like a forehead which hides our throat, eyes,nose, and pectorials that hide our plexis, our groin is also tucked away. Now go upwards with blows like a trained fighter: the knees become a target, the groin is hittable, the plexus is exposed, the throat, eyes, nose are all in range of an upward blow.

the hand can be formed to hit various targets on the body, sometimes with not much blunt force at all...with wide ranging effects.

[billeau2]

LMAO

Foreman was a victim of hallucination-inducing dehydration for the Young fight, and we've already concluded that Ali was far from a featherfist you moron

Foreman to this date rates Lyle as the hardest puncher he ever fought, above Tommy Morrison, the never-been that you and your fellow spastic HW-bloggers ****stroke to no end.

Also, before you even attempt to use your obtuse HW-blogger logic let me stop you right here and tell you:

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE THAT PUTTING ON 30 POUNDS OF FAT GIVES YOU A BETTER CHIN. Zero, null.

A natural 230 pounder is going to have a better chin than a natural 200 pounder, due a bigger and thicker skeletal structure and natural frame, but there is zero empirical evidence that putting on excess weight on your natural frame gives you a better chin. NONE!!! 90s and 70s Foreman had the same chin.

90s foreman had several chins! just a bit of levity lol

[juggernaut666]

LMAO

Foreman was a victim of hallucination-inducing dehydration for the Young fight, and we've already concluded that Ali was far from a featherfist you moron

Foreman to this date rates Lyle as the hardest puncher he ever fought, above Tommy Morrison, the never-been that you and your fellow spastic HW-bloggers ****stroke to no end.

Also, before you even attempt to use your obtuse HW-blogger logic let me stop you right here and tell you:

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE THAT PUTTING ON 30 POUNDS OF FAT GIVES YOU A BETTER CHIN. Zero, null.

A natural 230 pounder is going to have a better chin than a natural 200 pounder, due a bigger and thicker skeletal structure and natural frame, but there is zero empirical evidence that putting on excess weight on your natural frame gives you a better chin. NONE!!! 90s and 70s Foreman had the same chin.

Foreman had better stamina and rolled with punches as well as had more size/leg strength ...than his 70's counter part.Lyle may have hit him harder but Lyle didnt drop 260 pound Foreman ,he hurt 220 pound one,major differance....Foreman would never be stunned by some of the ones he fought in the 70's.

And theres a direct correlation to heavier weighted opposition with less k.os ....ANY champ post 50's will show the k.o percentage drops ,iexcluding Jack Johnson when fighting guys over 170 struggled severly....Tyson being the best example of k.o % that drops the bigger the opponent . !

There are exceptions like Holyfield and Tyson but in general the heavier guy will almost always have the chin advantage from a 15 pound and above weight advantage .

[MRBOOMER]

I think Tyson was faster but only in spurts, he couldn't maintain that speed on a constant basis 3 mins a round. Ali seemed to have more of a raw speed that's comparable to tysons power in the sense that he's always fast.

[The Old LefHook]

I think Tyson was faster but only in spurts, he couldn't maintain that speed on a constant basis 3 mins a round. Ali seemed to have more of a raw speed that's comparable to tysons power in the sense that he's always fast.

Good analogy.

[juggernaut666]

I think Tyson was faster but only in spurts, he couldn't maintain that speed on a constant basis 3 mins a round. Ali seemed to have more of a raw speed that's comparable to tysons power in the sense that he's always fast.

Tysons energy was used cutting the ring off and counter punching on the inside,with constant head movement this requires much more energy...ali did not have the athletism to do this,AND IF ANYONE IT WAS ALI WHO PUNCHED IN SPURTS MORE BECAUSE HE WOULD CONSTANTLY RESET THEN AFTER A COMBINATION FROM A DISTANCE GIVING HIM REST PERIODS OF STAYING AWAY USING HIS FEET WHILE NOT WORRYING ABOUT SOMEONES OFFENSE,THE DIFFERANCE IS HIS FIGHTS USUALLY WENT THE DISTANCE....also Tyson averaged 3 round fights under Rooney/cus so theres really no evidence to suggest he couldn't keep a fast paced fight up when only 4 guys made it either 10 or 12 rounders.THESE ARE ALL Tyson MYTHS CREATED WITH A BIAS TOWARDS HIM.


Even if it was only punch for punch that's what one measures in a faster puncher contest! And its still Tyson,if both are angled at there chosen preference of stance.And in a Head to head would certainly be Tyson b/c we know its a close in fight with ali not being strong enough or fast footed enough to peel Tyson away from him,so the advantage goes to Tysons inside fighting ,similar to why frazier beat Ali. one of the reasons why he didn't k.o guys like Tillis and green was he wasn't sure of his stamina and paced himself because he was never a distance fighter.Of course we know he had great stamina by style and fights like Ruddock not only going 12 but eating some monster punches that would k.o an elephant only an out of shape Tyson like douglas one would lose to and have been k.od.