Who was faster Tyson or Ali?

[chris boys]

some subtleties

Tyson already DID fight a guy pretty much comparale to a prime Ali...

Let's see what happened...


The proof is overwhelming.

Case closed

=======================

Again -- apples and oranges. The subject of this thread is NOT a theoretical fight between Ali and Tyson (a fascinating question, and one I am totally uncertain how to answer). The subject is ONLY about relative hand speed. Let's all stay on point.

Also, I notice that no one so far wants to comment on the last punch by Ali in the knockout sequence, where he articulates his wrist. If you know anything about athletes or have ever been a world-class athlete yourself, then you know that “articulation” is often what separates the very good from the very best.

For example, if you want to see one of the best examples of this difference, watch the videos of the NBA Western Conference finals where the centers are Olajuwon and Robinson. The videos are all available on YouTube, each about 10 minutes in length. Robinson was bigger, stronger, and even faster in a straight line than Olajuwon, but Olajuwon destroyed him in that series. The difference? – Olajuwon had phenomenal articulation of his body from the tip of his toes to the tips of his fingers. Olajuwon was a sort of Fred Astaire in that series (the dancer Baryshnikov once said was the greatest in history), whereas Robinson was “wooden” in comparison.

You can especially see the difference in the way Olajuwon released the ball with his various shots. In that series Bill Walton said that he had never seen any other center in history with that variety of shots. He had everything in the book. And with every one, at the last instant, he could adjust the release of the shot to compensate for the defense. It was pure poetry.

Tyson tended to “load up” on his shots. From what I have seen, he did not have that “heat seeking missile” thing with his shots. Ali, at his peak, did have this ability.

Also, though Tyson had perhaps the heaviest shots of any boxer in history, and Ali generally did not have a really heavy punch – Ali did have a very nasty punch (in his prime). Again, it had a good deal to do with articulation. He could get the punch to impact with a sort of ripping effect (with head shots), He stopped a lot of guys by cutting them this way.

[Elroy1]

"Articulating the punch" LOL

I'll comment on that.

Ali "Couldn't punch"

He won because he fought the proportionately weakest era of boxers in history (normalised for weight- Ali's era featured the most featherifsted boxers of all).

He won because he outweighed most of his opponents (70%) and then because he out-talled nearly all of them (all but 2 or 3), and only THEN can we consider "handspeed" of which his opponents themselves were very limited at (Take Liston, a top Ali opponent, being probably the slowest HW of all time). Which by the way was an EVEN FIGHT, see scorecards and fight, before injury quittage.

Ali had a piss weak punch and very poor punch technique. These are irrefutable facts and even backed by nut bag community representives in high positions.

I would have better credibility trying to sell Chris Byrds punch, which is in fact 1.5 times Ali's punch.

[Pugilist_Spec]

Ali knocked out the iron-chinned George Foreman. His punching power was fine. You're delusional, Elroy.

[Zaroku]

"Articulating the punch" LOL

I'll comment on that.

Ali "Couldn't punch"

He won because he fought the proportionately weakest era of boxers in history (normalised for weight- Ali's era featured the most featherifsted boxers of all).

He won because he outweighed most of his opponents (70%) and then because he out-talled nearly all of them (all but 2 or 3), and only THEN can we consider "handspeed" of which his opponents themselves were very limited at (Take Liston, a top Ali opponent, being probably the slowest HW of all time). Which by the way was an EVEN FIGHT, see scorecards and fight, before injury quittage.

Ali had a piss weak punch and very poor punch technique. These are irrefutable facts and even backed by nut bag community representives in high positions.

I would have better credibility trying to sell Chris Byrds punch, which is in fact 1.5 times Ali's punch.

Ali lost part of his prime fighting years because of his anti war beliefs.
Ali got into Forema's mind, then stopped him.

How do you know that Chris Byrd's punch is 1.5 times more powerful?

Ali had fast hands, a great chin, and decent power.

Tyson fired heavy shots, some jabs to get inside, then he unloaded high torque shots very quickly. He got leverage on his punches. Ali mixed speed, and power shots, moving forward, backward, and off the ropes.

I don't think Ali is the greatest HW ever.

[juggernaut666]

What a strange mental patient you are. You have someone disagreeing with you and you resort to ad hominems immediately and feel like you're pushed into a corner of a courtroom. Wonderful new addition we have here, you never know what kind of freak is gonna pop up here.


About a minute in for the first knockdown, that's a 4 punch combination at the same speed as the heavybag video, which btw is a legit showcase of handspeed. Faster than anything Ali could ever put into a combination. Yes Ali's KO of London was incredible but you've watched it in a 2 pixel video which makes it look faster than it was.

But there is good quality footage of the phantom punch which like I said, is probably the fastest single punch thrown by a heavyweight including Tyson.

That's two disagreements with you now, your highness. Do you feel like a **** victim now?

That was actually a 5 punch combo on that knock down.

[juggernaut666]

Ali knocked out the iron-chinned George Foreman. His punching power was fine. You're delusional, Elroy.

Ali needed Foreman to be in total exhaustion to k.o him,has nothing to do with punching power.At that point glass joe would have dropped foreman by another round if he walked in there and took Ali's place.

[Elroy1]

Ali lost part of his prime fighting years because of his anti war beliefs.
Ali got into Forema's mind, then stopped him.

Ali's "prime" was when he was of a prime fighting age, when he performed his best, when he fought the best opponents, when he was heftiest and most athletic and when he fought his best opponents (1974).

Ali stopped Foreman from some of the most unusual circumstances ever encountered. SOME of which are attributable to Foreman himself (gameplan crap), MOST of which to circumstance (3rd world atmosphere, Forem,anc held as prisoner and not allowed to train for months, loosened ropes, rumours of poisoning etc.) and then Ali, executes the dumbest gamepan ever done by a champion boxer and wins.. I'd call that LUCKY. This is a case of an unrepeateble win, hence why Ali ducked Foreman for the rest of his life.

Foreman was the best boxer of the 70's. It's kind of like if Ray Austin beat Wlad. WE all know Wlad is better really!

How do you know that Chris Byrd's punch is 1.5 times more powerful?

Because Byrd fought monsters and Ali fought midgets. Byrd STOPPED guys bigger than Ali could UD! And purely by math, Byrds real KO ratio is 50% and Ali's is opnly 33%, and this is FAVOURED to ALi since Byrd fought the better opponents!

Ali had fast hands, a great chin, and decent power.

Ali had fast hands, nobody doubts that. But he has a weak chin in relevant terms, and a weak punch in ANY terms and in terms of modern cruiser is nothing special in even handspeed.

Tyson fired heavy shots, some jabs to get inside, then he unloaded high torque shots very quickly. He got leverage on his punches. Ali mixed speed, and power shots, moving forward, backward, and off the ropes.

I don't think Ali is the greatest HW ever.[/QUOTE]

[Pugilist_Spec]

Ali needed Foreman to be in total exhaustion to k.o him,has nothing to do with punching power.At that point glass joe would have dropped foreman by another round if he walked in there and took Ali's place.

Except Ali was staggering Foreman throughout the fight with combinations off the ropes and every punch he landed made him back up a bit...Foreman didn't just fall over himslef at the knockdown too, you know... Chris Byrd could never do that to Foreman.

There's also other evidence of Alis power... Stopping Rigo Bonavena with a single left hook, he was the only fighter to ever stop him. Also pretty much finished Ron Lyle with a single right hand counter...knocked down Cleveland Williams with a 1-2 off the backfoot...his power was fine. An average hitter but he could get anyones respect.

[Elroy1]

Ali knocked out the iron-chinned George Foreman. His punching power was fine. You're delusional, Elroy.

Foreman was IRON CHINNED only in the 90's!

In the 70's he was SUSPECT chinned.

He was KD's y not only Ali it also Young and CRUISER featherifst and Lyle, below post 90's standards for a "puncher".

Ali was demonstratably an ABSOLUTE featherfist, bottome 3 of all time out of all 100 champs to date. That not just bad, that's REAL bad.

Juggernaut summed up other stuff concisely.

Easy news.

Your man was the most manufactured boxer in history. Makes Wilder look legit!

[Elroy1]

Except Ali was staggering Foreman throughout the fight with combinations off the ropes and every punch he landed made him back up a bit...Foreman didn't just fall over himslef at the knockdown too, you know... Chris Byrd could never do that to Foreman.

There's also other evidence of Alis power... Stopping Rigo Bonavena with a single left hook, he was the only fighter to ever stop him. Also pretty much finished Ron Lyle with a single right hand counter...knocked down Cleveland Williams with a 1-2 off the backfoot...his power was fine. An average hitter but he could get anyones respect.

Your man was piss weak. The Alphoso Raliff of the 70's LOL