which middleweight could

[sonnyboyx2]

Damn boy, what did Hagler do to you?

I'm leaving some of the older fighters out of this cos I just haven't seen them fight enough or at all.

Starting off with recent middleweight, Toney was fluid enough and had enough punch variety to have the best shot at beating Hagler. Hopkins could make the fight ugly but I'm not sure if he wins. Jones was exceptionally talented and in the mid 90s, during his time at mw/smw, his reflexes were second to none. Problem is, Hagler was a superior puncher and a superior technician, I can see him winning by KO or UD.

Someone like Fullmer would probably be too small, Robinson was not quiet at his best at mw but he still had that explosive power, impregnable chin and superb skill, so it's a 60-40 for Robinson on that one.

Monzon v Hagler is probably the most interesting for me. For all the mystique surrounding Monzon, he did what he did and that was good basics. He wasn't explosive, didn't have startling reflexes or blurring handspeed but he had the basics down to a tee. A good jab, good defence, strong, solid footwork. Hagler could be a bit loose at times and often got stuck, not knowing whether to play the puncher or the boxer.

just a couple of points you could address for me.

1/. Damn boy, what did Hagler do to you?

2/. Hagler was a superior puncher and a superior technician, I can see him winning by KO or UD. ???... Surely your joking. Hagler a "superior puncher and superior technician" than Roy Jones Jr. ??? LOL

3/. Gene Fullmer "Too Small" ????... Fullmer was one of the strongest most poweful middleweights of all time... Are you forgetting Hagler's draw against Antuofermo?

4/. You see Hagler winning James Toney by KO or UD ??... James Toney was never KOd in his life, not even at Heavyweight by power-punchers like Sam Peter or Hasim Rahman. Yet you see Marvin Hagler who was not a one-punch KO artist , knocking out James Toney.. Marvin Hagler who struggled so badly against Roberto Duran at "in-fighting" would win UD against a fighter who is one of the all time greats at "in fighting" James Toney ?


Which fights of Marvin Hagler do i watch to see Hagler's superior punching and technique, which is bestter than Roy Jones Jr. ????

[billeau2]

This is what happens when things become opinions. basically this is why I would seldom declare an absolute...How does Jones speed stack up with Marvin's relentless attack? God only knows and he ain't tellin'!

Its an opinion and I think possabilities can be debated...Monzon and the possability of him catching Hagler for example, Jone's speed, ect.

[sonnyboyx2]

This is what happens when things become opinions. basically this is why I would seldom declare an absolute...How does Jones speed stack up with Marvin's relentless attack? God only knows and he ain't tellin'!

Its an opinion and I think possabilities can be debated...Monzon and the possability of him catching Hagler for example, Jone's speed, ect.

i understand what you are trying to say. But which fights can i watch Marvin's "relentless attack"...?

if you want to watch Roy Jones blinding speed, try the:

Pazienza fight
Richard Hall fight
Reggie Johnson fight
Montell Griffin (2) fight
Mike McCallum fight
Bryant Brannon fight
Tony Thornton fight
Merquie Sosa fight

i see no reason whatsoever why Roy Jones Jr. would not be able to show his blinding hand speed and his punching power, if fighting Marvin Hagler... Hagler could not cut the ring down and catch an old Ray Leonard, so would have no chance against Roy Jones who was virtually untouchable at middleweight.. By untouchable, i mean his opponents could barely lay a glove on Jones, due to his incredible reflexes... Tommy Hearns had no problem in the opening round putting his punches on Hagler. Hearns landed almost every punch he through, cutting Hagler above and below each eye and splitting Haglers forehead open.. Great boxer that Hearns was, he never had the legs or reflexes Roy Jones had. i can think of no fighter in history who had reflexes better than Roy Jones Jr... IMO Roy would win every round.

[Ray Corso]

Hagler was 3 years older than Leonard.
Antuofermo was one of the toughest men with an awkward style who also was in tremendous condition. Back the he and Hamsho were very difficult men to fight. Don't look at their lack of boxing skills only. Those men had alot of success and few men were willoing to face them.
Hagler was not a powrr punched he won his KO and tko by wearing down people. His punching ability was in combination work and going top to bottom and vice versa. He could box or brawl but he was a much better boxer than most think. He was not fleet of foot he was a shuffle and quick stepper because that kept him balanced and able to punch in combination. He had a tendency to reach with his jab against movers and that a was liabilty.
Jones and Hopkins had a cup of coffee at 160, their careers were as 175 at their best.
You talk about Hearns like he was a scrub, yes he landed they were brawling!
After 2 rounds you saw what happened.
Hagler has the better opponents on his record he had a great run and ducked no one. He did without a major promotion company behind him (very impressive to me).
I had fighters on his cards a few times and when Hagler went to the ring
people stopped what they were doing and watched him walk. He had an air about him that Leonard, Hearns and Benitez NEVER had!
It was simular to Duran when Duran fought at lightweight.
Leonard waited for him to have a few more fights into his 30's .
Hagler fought 67 times 78% ko ratio and Leonard had 40 bouts with 63% ratio. Leonards first 14 bouts were carefully constructed, strange for a USA champion and Gold Medalists at the Olympics who had over 200 bouts from J.O. to Open class. Hagler had about 50 amatuer bouts and in his 15th or so fight was in with Sugar Ray Seales and undefeated fighter.

Leonard was carefully placed, Hagler fought his way up with any pomp and circumstances.
I saw Leonard box when he 15 years. By the way Hagler won a Nationals Title and I first saw him in the AAU in Prov. RI & Lowell Mass at the Regionals.
Both were excellant but back then Leonard couldn't break a broken egg and Hagler was in your face at the bell.

Stop hating, appreciate the man's legacy especially a guy who was always in condition and willing to win, thats rare these days.
Ray

[sonnyboyx2]

Hagler was 3 years older than Leonard.
Antuofermo was one of the toughest men with an awkward style who also was in tremendous condition. Back the he and Hamsho were very difficult men to fight. Don't look at their lack of boxing skills only. Those men had alot of success and few men were willoing to face them.
Hagler was not a powrr punched he won his KO and tko by wearing down people. His punching ability was in combination work and going top to bottom and vice versa. He could box or brawl but he was a much better boxer than most think. He was not fleet of foot he was a shuffle and quick stepper because that kept him balanced and able to punch in combination. He had a tendency to reach with his jab against movers and that a was liabilty.
Jones and Hopkins had a cup of coffee at 160, their careers were as 175 at their best.
You talk about Hearns like he was a scrub, yes he landed they were brawling!
After 2 rounds you saw what happened.
Hagler has the better opponents on his record he had a great run and ducked no one. He did without a major promotion company behind him (very impressive to me).
I had fighters on his cards a few times and when Hagler went to the ring
people stopped what they were doing and watched him walk. He had an air about him that Leonard, Hearns and Benitez NEVER had!
It was simular to Duran when Duran fought at lightweight.
Leonard waited for him to have a few more fights into his 30's .
Hagler fought 67 times 78% ko ratio and Leonard had 40 bouts with 63% ratio. Leonards first 14 bouts were carefully constructed, strange for a USA champion and Gold Medalists at the Olympics who had over 200 bouts from J.O. to Open class. Hagler had about 50 amatuer bouts and in his 15th or so fight was in with Sugar Ray Seales and undefeated fighter.

Leonard was carefully placed, Hagler fought his way up with any pomp and circumstances.
I saw Leonard box when he 15 years. By the way Hagler won a Nationals Title and I first saw him in the AAU in Prov. RI & Lowell Mass at the Regionals.
Both were excellant but back then Leonard couldn't break a broken egg and Hagler was in your face at the bell.

Stop hating, appreciate the man's legacy especially a guy who was always in condition and willing to win, thats rare these days.
Ray

Ray... What you say here is correct and i have never claimed what you say about Marvin Hagler to be incorrect. What i disagree with you about is you not accepting that Roy Jones Jr & James Toney were both middleweight champion of the world...... it is meaningless to claim they were champion at other weights, otherwise i will then claim Ray Leonard, Thomas Hearns & Roberto Duran were champions at other weights etc etc...

Ray... Address Hagler vs Roy Jones @ 160lbs.. Hagler vs James Toney @ 160lbs.. Hagler vs Gene Fullmer @ 160lbs.....

Ray you have stated above how Hagler is slow of foot etc... He stand little chance of defeating Roy Jones Jr...

You also "Refuse to Accept" Thomas Hearns broke his famous right hand in the opening round, against Hagler.

You cannot and will not accept Hagler was beaten by Ray Leonard, who was having his first fight in nearly 3yrs.. instead you claim Leonard waited for Hagler to slow down etc... ignoring the rust Leonard showed in their fight.

Your opinion of Antuofermo, Hamsho, Ray Seales is the opposite to my opinion of those fighters... Britain's Maurice Hope poleaxed Vito Antuofermo in a European Title Fight, years before Antuofermo drew with Hagler... Hamsho was as limited as they come and Ray Seales was virtually blind when losing to Hagler...

Marvin Hagler was a dedicated fighter who was successful in his career. But Roy Jones Jr. was simply several leagues above Hagler.

Hagler was only 2 years older than Leonard, not 3 years...

[McGoorty]

it

Well i would have a wager on these fighters to beat any version of Marvin Hagler.

Sam Langford
Freddie Steele
Marcel Cerdan
Carlos Monzon
Ray Robinson
Stanley Ketchel
Mickey Walker
Gene Fullmer
James Toney
Roy Jones Jr.
Bernard Hopkins

Darcy and Greb and Tommy Ryan... Look great fighters are great fighters and you never know how it will turn out as they are all rather close in ability and toughness and one fight will go one way another the other way and thats just between two guys. Boxing is unpredictable most of the time If we ran a tournament with all the guys you mentioned as well as the three I named plus hagler... one guy will win the tournament, the next tournament he may not get past first or second round of the tourney... now tell me I am wrong I dare ya.

[McGoorty]

Ruiz

"hating" Hagler???? .. maybe you can explain!

Having an opinion is not hating, Hagler i agree was always in shape and always gave a good account of himself. He fought fairly often for that period and has one of the better records for a Middleweight. Again i agree... However i have gave my opinion on how i feel Hagler would fare against a list of other former middleweight champions. Yet you call my opinion "hating"...

I don't hate any boxer, i don't know any former professional boxers personally. So how can i "hate them"...?

But because my opinion does not tally with your opinion, you are labeling me as someone who has a "hate" for the boxer in question. ffs

I have followed Marvin Hagler's career since before he fought Kevin Finnigan back in 1978 and know all about the guy... i have dozens of his fights along with dozens of articles on him. He was a tremendous competitor, Do i feel he could defeat Roy Jones Jr. or James Toney at 160lbs - definitely Not.

Do i think Marvin Hagler could beat any of the middleweight champions i listed above - definitely Not.

Ray - How if i labeled you the "hater" of Roy Jones & James Toney for not agreeing with me??? ....Your problem Ray, is you cannot debate mate. You post your piece here on the subject and believe your opinion is "Carved in Stone not for debate"... Well your wrong my friend. Anyone with one iota of boxing knowledge would bet their right arm, Roy Jones would murder Hagler at 160lbs...

Could Hagler beat John Ruiz?
Could Hagler beat Evander Holyfield like James Toney did?

Ruiz ??? LOL :wank: The guy is the ultimate bum, Hagler eats him for breakfast and ****s him out before lunch and then says......... NEXT ?.. Seriously nobody should ever mention Ruiz in here again he was a disgrace to the heavyweight division period. Even a little guy like Jones beat him and that should never happen to even a half decent heavyweight, Ruiz Schmuiz

[McGoorty]

Light

Sonny, your math work is impeccable. Thanks for helping the less fortunate understand that the punches of Roy Jones land in 1/10 the time of Leonard's. Everyone should have a clear picture now that while Leonard is able to land one punch Roy can land ten punches in that amount of time. This means if Roy had been a practicioner of the shoeshine, his mitts would have would have been as blurred as hummingbird wings. Good work.

Scientists tested Jones's hand speed and they worked out that at that speed would make it to a galaxy 1 million light years away in under half an hour making Roy about 5 million times faster than the speed of light and he hit so hard he once hit an elephant in the head so hard the elephants head flew off and three miles away a hippopotamus was having a bath in a lake when the elephants flying head hit the hippo and took its head off which then killed a zimbabwean cow farmer. That Roy Jones, he was quick man.... the speed of light can be broken and Roy proved it.

[Ray Corso]

Arguing or debating has become boring to me sorry.
I just state my opinion on a topic but when its dragged on & on with no point or resolve it gets childish to me.
Yes Jones was a very fast worked but at 160 he was very immature and he never was really challenged and I believe Hagler gives him the true challenge.
Toney at middleweight waited 3 years to fight a real opponent in Sosa, fought tuff with Mike and on he went to light heavy.
At 160 they fought no one in comparison to Hagler.
Who did Jones beat? A lazy Hopkins?

Heres the main point I try to make when comparisons are made.
I try to evaluate over all skills and talents. I like at Methods & Techniques before I like at names on a record!
I was a boxing trainer for many years and my view point is very different from a fans and for that matter a fighters!
Over all skills and the ability to adjust are very high on my thinking.
Their are throughout performances too, good and bad. These are people that struggle at times to reproduce a high level performance time after time.
They do have lives that involve love & death & business problems and turning it on & off isn't an option all the time.

I'm done with this topic, disliking a style is one think but hate isn't right. You don't even know the guy, Hagler was always a decent guy especially to kids giving out wraps, gloves and shirts and had no problem talking with anyone.

ok late lunch is on............

[McGoorty]

Damn boy, what did Hagler do to you?

I'm leaving some of the older fighters out of this cos I just haven't seen them fight enough or at all.

Starting off with recent middleweight, Toney was fluid enough and had enough punch variety to have the best shot at beating Hagler. Hopkins could make the fight ugly but I'm not sure if he wins. Jones was exceptionally talented and in the mid 90s, during his time at mw/smw, his reflexes were second to none. Problem is, Hagler was a superior puncher and a superior technician, I can see him winning by KO or UD.

Someone like Fullmer would probably be too small, Robinson was not quiet at his best at mw but he still had that explosive power, impregnable chin and superb skill, so it's a 60-40 for Robinson on that one.

Monzon v Hagler is probably the most interesting for me. For all the mystique surrounding Monzon, he did what he did and that was good basics. He wasn't explosive, didn't have startling reflexes or blurring handspeed but he had the basics down to a tee. A good jab, good defence, strong, solid footwork. Hagler could be a bit loose at times and often got stuck, not knowing whether to play the puncher or the boxer.

Fullmer was a lot of things mate but not being a big enough middleweight wasn't one of them, Gene was a very big middleweight, like Les Darcy. I think Robinson beats Hagler up, Robinson was a lot better than Ray Leonard.