the brawl in montreal

[BennyST]

Why can't you guys just admit that ray fought the wrong game plan in the first fight, and the right game plan in the rematch... Even ray himself has said that many times...

Because that makes no sense and is oversimplified. If that were the case, everyone that ever loses a fight fought the wrong game plan. That completely oversimplifies it. That would then mean Duran fought the right game plan in the first fight but the wrong one in the rematch and that's the reason he lost. I doubt you ever say that it was actually that Duran lost in New Orleans because he fought the wrong game plan. Leonard won right?

You're saying ... If you lose a fight, you fought the wrong game plan. It's technically right for every single fight, but also practically completely oversimplified and wrong. You're trying to say that the winner doesn't win. The loser loses. You're trying to say that Duran didn't win, Leonard lost, thus giving no credit to Duran. Did Duran only lose the rematch because he fought the wrong game plan? He was a versatile fighter. He didn't only ever come forward. He was beating Leonard coming off the ropes in the first fight, in the centre of the ring, backing up and coming forward. So did Leonard win the rematch, or did Duran lose because he fought the wrong game plan?

Leonard didn't fight the wrong game plan because he never changed it from his standard winning game plan, he just bloody well lost. How is he meant to know to move more than he's ever moved in a fight before or since and not engage but move, move, move to win until he lost to the one guy that could beat him? He didn't change his winning game plan or style of fighting for that one fight. He changed it for the rematch to a style he had never used before.

He learnt new things he didn't know he even needed to do and fought in a style that he'd never used before. That's learning new things and then winning a different fight based on those new things, not losing an earlier fight that him and his team should have magically known they couldn't win using his career long winning strengths and standard way of fighting. We only know he couldn't win using his normal style because he lost the fight. But, that way of fighting had gotten him to where he was and it won him basically every fight he ever had...except one.

If Ali hadn't used rope-a-dope against Foreman, but instead fought his normal fight and then lost it, would you say he fought the wrong game plan and should have actually lay against the ropes until Foreman exhausted himself just laying into him?

He needed to train three months to fight differently and very specifically for the way he fought in the rematch. He couldn't have actually fought that way in their first fight because he hadn't ever trained for that level of movement and that style of fight and had no idea he would lose using his natural style. One of the big things he had to do was bulk up his upper body so he could push Duran off him in close quarters. Is it fighting the wrong game plan that they didn't know they even needed to do that to beat him, or is it just losing the fight?

Leonard was boxing and moving normally, got countered and hurt, took him numerous rounds to recover while taking brutal body punishment, then he fought to try and win rounds back but couldn't do it enough. That was his normal winning game plan and normal winning fight, but this time he lost. That's not fighting the wrong game plan, or changing his game plan, that's just losing a fight based on his normal style of fighting then winning a different fight based on a completely different and new game plan.

[billeau2]

Leonard was very versatile,, he could hunt you down if need be, or he could outpoint you if need be...

In the first duran fight, leonard even though he was an excellent hunter in the ring, fought to duran's strength even though it was also a strength of leonard.
Of course leonard can stand and trade, or hunt someone down, but it was the wrong game plan for that fight... Had he done what he did in the 2nd and horrible 3rd fight, i think leonard would have won a decision

Leonard self admits that he had the wrong game plan for duran in the first fight.. Going to war with duran was not smart, as duran is so cagey in a firefight...

I really don't see how you guys can say leonard fought "his fight" when that style is also duran's fight...

You can't say that leonard is versatile, and then turn around and act like standing and trading was leonard's MO.. He changed/adapted styles depending on his opponent... With a guy like duran, standing and trading was the wrong game plan, in the rematch, ray showed his adaptability and was on his way to a decision win...

Why can't you guys just admit that ray fought the wrong game plan in the first fight, and the right game plan in the rematch... Even ray himself has said that many times...

Heres the problem with your semantic distinction....and that is what it is because what we are saying is that Leonard lost the fight, vis a vis he didn't fight the right fight. You are assuming that Leonard was compelled through the original hand of god, Aristotle's prime mover, or some other graduated sense of agency that absolves him....No, the sense of agency was Duran: Duran forced leonard to fight a certain way, it was not by choice and the proof is that leonard otherwise would have adapted to the problem in thinking...he didn't.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Heres the problem with your semantic distinction....and that is what it is because what we are saying is that Leonard lost the fight, vis a vis he didn't fight the right fight. You are assuming that Leonard was compelled through the original hand of god, Aristotle's prime mover, or some other graduated sense of agency that absolves him....No, the sense of agency was Duran: Duran forced leonard to fight a certain way, it was not by choice and the proof is that leonard otherwise would have adapted to the problem in thinking...he didn't.

Lol.... "Aristotles prime mover"


Leonard did lose because he fought the wrong fight... He didn't adapt.. I actually think it was a learning experience for leonard because it was the first time he couldn't have his way with an opponent.. Leonard maybe was too confident in his abilities and thought he would eventually overwhelm duran...

If you watched the leonard-hearns fight a year later, ray's original gameplan was not working just like in duran 1, but this time Ray adapted and switched up his style and found success vs hearns... By rounds 7 or 8, Ray should have changed it up, but instead kept making it hard on himself by throwing down vs duran..

And I'm not trying to discredit duran's win... He fought a great fight, in a war..
Leonard fought angry which is exactly what duran wanted, hence all the prefight trash talk, n-bombs, harassing ray's wife... Duran wanted this type of fight and goaded Ray into it..

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=Sugar Adam Ali;15808670]Lol.... "Aristotles prime mover"


Leonard did lose because he fought the wrong fight... He didn't adapt..

Right!! And who's choice was that? all jokes about what compelled him not to change aside.... leanard was a reactive adaptive fighter (Dwyer's phrase) meaning....he makes adjustments in the ring when he could. He couldn't in this case, cause if he coulda he woulda. Why couldn't he make those adjustments? because of the mean eyed Panamanian guy trying to hit him with everything but the kitchen sink.

[Dynamite76]

I think Roberto scared the living daylights out of Ray, got into his head, and it was a wrap.Also, like Ray said, when he hit Ray with that big shot in the second round, it took him severall rounds to recover from that, and by that time, Roberto already had established dominance. Remember that Roberto said that Ray was the fastest fighter he ever fought b ut he saw everything coming. Randy Shields stated in a KO Magazine article that Ray telegraphed his punches, so that was a big plus for Roberto also.

[The Surgeon]

My favourite fight of all time

[rightsideup]

I am going to stir the pot here a bit and refer to the recent documentary about there rivalry. Leonard claimed to be traumatized by not getting credit for the second fight win and put duran through the humiliating experience of explaining no mas. There is really no explanation other than duran lost the boxer's drive to physically and mentally prepare for competition at the highest level. So if leonard fought the wrong fight in montreal which I believe is bs because duran dictated the terms of the contest through excellent physical and mental prep. Leonard dictated the second fight by knowing he did not have the same fighter in front of him.

[Scott9945]

I am going to stir the pot here a bit and refer to the recent documentary about there rivalry. Leonard claimed to be traumatized by not getting credit for the second fight win and put duran through the humiliating experience of explaining no mas. There is really no explanation other than duran lost the boxer's drive to physically and mentally prepare for competition at the highest level. So if leonard fought the wrong fight in montreal which I believe is bs because duran dictated the terms of the contest through excellent physical and mental prep. Leonard dictated the second fight by knowing he did not have the same fighter in front of him.

I felt that documentary was heavily biased for Leonard and a major disappointment. Only a few interesting facts and some great footage saved it from being unwatchable.

[rightsideup]

I felt that documentary was heavily biased for Leonard and a major disappointment. Only a few interesting facts and some great footage saved it from being unwatchable.

did you catch the little caption at the end where cholo asks sugar why no fight n. 3 while he was young and sugar answers because he could

[Scott9945]

did you catch the little caption at the end where cholo asks sugar why no fight n. 3 while he was young and sugar answers because he could

I don't remember that specifically, but the show reminded me of what an egomaniac Leonard is.

But on the other hand, Duran was lucky to ever get a third fight considering the scandal the rematch caused. Oliver McCall never got his rubber match after the bizarre rematch against Lewis..