the brawl in montreal

[Sugar Adam Ali]

I think you'll have more trouble finding a fight where he fought like he did in the second Duran fight than you can the first one.

Leonard was known for his dazzling combinations, he could clearly box but most of the time he was pushing the action and wanting to fight. People were expecting him to fight Duran, what were people expecting Ray Leonard to pot shot? They were expecting Ray Leonard to take the smaller man out.

To say that people were shocked at the idea of Ray Leonard trading punches with someone is just simply wrong.

And Ray Leonard had already shown his heart by that point, more than once.

What fight did leonard get tested before duran 1???

[Sugar Adam Ali]

I think you'll have more trouble finding a fight where he fought like he did in the second Duran fight than you can the first one.

Leonard was known for his dazzling combinations, he could clearly box but most of the time he was pushing the action and wanting to fight. People were expecting him to fight Duran, what were people expecting Ray Leonard to pot shot? They were expecting Ray Leonard to take the smaller man out.

To say that people were shocked at the idea of Ray Leonard trading punches with someone is just simply wrong.

And Ray Leonard had already shown his heart by that point, more than once.

What fight did leonard get tested before duran 1???

I will say the benitez fight, leonard had to push the action and be the aggressor, but he had to due to Wilfredo's style...

But vs a guy like duran, you can't think your gonna stand and trade with that dude... His nickname is "hands of stone". Who in their right mind would trade with a guy known as "hands of stone".

Leonard should have used his boxing skills and speed to outpoint Duran instead of trading.., in the 2nd fight, he did exactly that, and was on his way to a decision till Duran quit..

[The Old LefHook]

I will say the benitez fight, leonard had to push the action and be the aggressor, but he had to due to Wilfredo's style...

But vs a guy like duran, you can't think your gonna stand and trade with that dude... His nickname is "hands of stone". Who in their right mind would trade with a guy known as "hands of stone".

Leonard should have used his boxing skills and speed to outpoint Duran instead of trading.., in the 2nd fight, he did exactly that, and was on his way to a decision till Duran quit..

The referee had no business stopping the Benitez fight when he did. Leonard should have won a decision.

In my opinion Leonard in his peak years is one of the most diverse creatures we have seen in the ring yet, perhaps the best ring general of all time. The only fight he seemed lost in was Hearns I for a while. That said, I dislike his rematch protocol and still hold it against him. He screwed Hearns and Hagler on rematches. Maybe his brother-in-law should have had one too.

Leonard was on his way to winning a MW sleeper decision, doing almost nothing. It was ****** Duran who gave him something to jump on the ring ropes about. How much greater Duran's post-fight agony must have been than taking a lackluster decision loss where even a rematch was thinkable. He must have suffered a lot and broken some powder room mirrors.

[BennyST]

I will say the benitez fight, leonard had to push the action and be the aggressor, but he had to due to Wilfredo's style...

But vs a guy like duran, you can't think your gonna stand and trade with that dude... His nickname is "hands of stone". Who in their right mind would trade with a guy known as "hands of stone".

Leonard should have used his boxing skills and speed to outpoint Duran instead of trading.., in the 2nd fight, he did exactly that, and was on his way to a decision till Duran quit..

A guy who was naturally much bigger, younger, with power, at his peak and assumed he would have the skill speed and strength advantage over the older lightweight. That was what they considered their advantage going into the fight.

People forget, but one of Dundees biggest plans for this fight was for Leonard not to move against the smaller man, but to push him back and go to his body, which Dundee, Leonard and his team thought he wouldn't be able to take because of his inconsistent training and weight gain. Duran hadn't shown much power at 147, and they considered Leonard to have the power advantage, plus the natural size advantage. Dundee wanted to push Duran back because they didn't think he could fight going backwards and didn't think he could take a fast, strong welterweight out.

There are so many ridiculous myths about this fight. The whole "Leonard didn't fight his fight" thing is ****ing absurd. He fought about two fights in his whole career like he did in the rematch. His whole career, 95% of it, was made from fights like their first one. That is how Leonard fought. That is his style. It's how he always had fought and it's how he fought all fights, bar Hagler, after Duran two too.

The fact that Duran was able to slip Leonard's jab, defend against his flurries and counter him made it seem like Leonard stood his ground more than usual, but it was Duran being able to do that, get inside, time his speed and counter him that made it seem like he was fighting differently. He fought all his fights like that, it's just that it usually worked against everyone...except a highly motivated, more or less prime Duran. He still had the speed of hand and foot, plus the defense to slip Leonard's jab and flurries to give him a great deal of trouble.

It's bizarre that people think he changed his style and game plan for the first fight rather than the second. He had never fought a single fight as he did in the rematch. That was a big departure from his natural style.

Duran beat Leonard at Leonard's own game, not some mythical fantasy fight which Leonard had never fought before.

[billeau2]

A guy who was naturally much bigger, younger, with power, at his peak and assumed he would have the skill speed and strength advantage over the older lightweight. That was what they considered their advantage going into the fight.

People forget, but one of Dundees biggest plans for this fight was for Leonard not to move against the smaller man, but to push him back and go to his body, which Dundee, Leonard and his team thought he wouldn't be able to take because of his inconsistent training and weight gain. Duran hadn't shown much power at 147, and they considered Leonard to have the power advantage, plus the natural size advantage. Dundee wanted to push Duran back because they didn't think he could fight going backwards and didn't think he could take a fast, strong welterweight out.

There are so many ridiculous myths about this fight. The whole "Leonard didn't fight his fight" thing is ****ing absurd. He fought about two fights in his whole career like he did in the rematch. His whole career, 95% of it, was made from fights like their first one. That is how Leonard fought. That is his style. It's how he always had fought and it's how he fought all fights, bar Hagler, after Duran two too.

The fact that Duran was able to slip Leonard's jab, defend against his flurries and counter him made it seem like Leonard stood his ground more than usual, but it was Duran being able to do that, get inside, time his speed and counter him that made it seem like he was fighting differently. He fought all his fights like that, it's just that it usually worked against everyone...except a highly motivated, more or less prime Duran. He still had the speed of hand and foot, plus the defense to slip Leonard's jab and flurries to give him a great deal of trouble.

It's bizarre that people think he changed his style and game plan for the first fight rather than the second. He had never fought a single fight as he did in the rematch. That was a big departure from his natural style.

Duran beat Leonard at Leonard's own game, not some mythical fantasy fight which Leonard had never fought before.

Bravo!!!!!!!!!!! Could not have said it better. Leonard liked certain things: he liked blow, he liked women, he liked to put in a show, he liked to display his awesome skills and alllllll these things took a back seat to Leonard's extreme pathological desire to WIN. There is no way in Satan's hell or God's heaven that leonard would fight a certain way that would make a point at the expense of WINNING this fight. It don't fit the psychological profile of a man who tried winning fights from the moment they were conceived of.

The leonard that would trade with Duran to make a point would have been the Leonard that would have made a fight with hagler years before.... NO. leonard was tricked by Duran and forced to fight the way he did because he was countered and hit and pressed. Benitez by comparison couldn't press because he was partied out, not as fast or strong, and did not want to risk getting Koed....so leonard picked him apart. Duran could not be picked apart like this because Like Leonard Duran was a great elite fighter with unmatched skills and guile.

[billeau2]

I will say the benitez fight, leonard had to push the action and be the aggressor, but he had to due to Wilfredo's style...

But vs a guy like duran, you can't think your gonna stand and trade with that dude... His nickname is "hands of stone". Who in their right mind would trade with a guy known as "hands of stone".

Leonard should have used his boxing skills and speed to outpoint Duran instead of trading.., in the 2nd fight, he did exactly that, and was on his way to a decision till Duran quit..

Benitez was his own worse opponent. he went into that fight unprepared physically, having partied in the Bronx and East Harlem, and with an Ego that would rather risk a compromise than any attempt to challenge the hegimony of leonard.

[NChristo]

I will say the benitez fight, leonard had to push the action and be the aggressor, but he had to due to Wilfredo's style...

But vs a guy like duran, you can't think your gonna stand and trade with that dude... His nickname is "hands of stone". Who in their right mind would trade with a guy known as "hands of stone".

Leonard should have used his boxing skills and speed to outpoint Duran instead of trading.., in the 2nd fight, he did exactly that, and was on his way to a decision till Duran quit..

Are you just saying what you think sounds right without watching any of the actual fights ?, Leonard didn't fight against Benitez the same way he did against Duran, Benitez didn't allow it, obviously, this is Benitez we're talking about, the 1st round Leonard fought at a decent pace but after that it was probably one of his more slower bouts up to the later rounds. Leonard was 99% of the time the aggressor as he was in both fights, just both fought different ways.

Duran and Benitez may as well be the polar opposites in styles, no one is going to fight against them the same way.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

The referee had no business stopping the Benitez fight when he did. Leonard should have won a decision.

In my opinion Leonard in his peak years is one of the most diverse creatures we have seen in the ring yet, perhaps the best ring general of all time. The only fight he seemed lost in was Hearns I for a while. That said, I dislike his rematch protocol and still hold it against him. He screwed Hearns and Hagler on rematches. Maybe his brother-in-law should have had one too.

Leonard was on his way to winning a MW sleeper decision, doing almost nothing. It was ****** Duran who gave him something to jump on the ring ropes about. How much greater Duran's post-fight agony must have been than taking a lackluster decision loss where even a rematch was thinkable. He must have suffered a lot and broken some powder room mirrors.

A guy who was naturally much bigger, younger, with power, at his peak and assumed he would have the skill speed and strength advantage over the older lightweight. That was what they considered their advantage going into the fight.

People forget, but one of Dundees biggest plans for this fight was for Leonard not to move against the smaller man, but to push him back and go to his body, which Dundee, Leonard and his team thought he wouldn't be able to take because of his inconsistent training and weight gain. Duran hadn't shown much power at 147, and they considered Leonard to have the power advantage, plus the natural size advantage. Dundee wanted to push Duran back because they didn't think he could fight going backwards and didn't think he could take a fast, strong welterweight out.

There are so many ridiculous myths about this fight. The whole "Leonard didn't fight his fight" thing is ****ing absurd. He fought about two fights in his whole career like he did in the rematch. His whole career, 95% of it, was made from fights like their first one. That is how Leonard fought. That is his style. It's how he always had fought and it's how he fought all fights, bar Hagler, after Duran two too.

The fact that Duran was able to slip Leonard's jab, defend against his flurries and counter him made it seem like Leonard stood his ground more than usual, but it was Duran being able to do that, get inside, time his speed and counter him that made it seem like he was fighting differently. He fought all his fights like that, it's just that it usually worked against everyone...except a highly motivated, more or less prime Duran. He still had the speed of hand and foot, plus the defense to slip Leonard's jab and flurries to give him a great deal of trouble.

It's bizarre that people think he changed his style and game plan for the first fight rather than the second. He had never fought a single fight as he did in the rematch. That was a big departure from his natural style.

Duran beat Leonard at Leonard's own game, not some mythical fantasy fight which Leonard had never fought before.

Bravo!!!!!!!!!!! Could not have said it better. Leonard liked certain things: he liked blow, he liked women, he liked to put in a show, he liked to display his awesome skills and alllllll these things took a back seat to Leonard's extreme pathological desire to WIN. There is no way in Satan's hell or God's heaven that leonard would fight a certain way that would make a point at the expense of WINNING this fight. It don't fit the psychological profile of a man who tried winning fights from the moment they were conceived of.

The leonard that would trade with Duran to make a point would have been the Leonard that would have made a fight with hagler years before.... NO. leonard was tricked by Duran and forced to fight the way he did because he was countered and hit and pressed. Benitez by comparison couldn't press because he was partied out, not as fast or strong, and did not want to risk getting Koed....so leonard picked him apart. Duran could not be picked apart like this because Like Leonard Duran was a great elite fighter with unmatched skills and guile.

Are you just saying what you think sounds right without watching any of the actual fights ?, Leonard didn't fight against Benitez the same way he did against Duran, Benitez didn't allow it, obviously, this is Benitez we're talking about, the 1st round Leonard fought at a decent pace but after that it was probably one of his more slower bouts up to the later rounds. Leonard was 99% of the time the aggressor as he was in both fights, just both fought different ways.

Duran and Benitez may as well be the polar opposites in styles, no one is going to fight against them the same way.

Leonard was very versatile,, he could hunt you down if need be, or he could outpoint you if need be...

In the first duran fight, leonard even though he was an excellent hunter in the ring, fought to duran's strength even though it was also a strength of leonard.
Of course leonard can stand and trade, or hunt someone down, but it was the wrong game plan for that fight... Had he done what he did in the 2nd and horrible 3rd fight, i think leonard would have won a decision

Leonard self admits that he had the wrong game plan for duran in the first fight.. Going to war with duran was not smart, as duran is so cagey in a firefight...

I really don't see how you guys can say leonard fought "his fight" when that style is also duran's fight...

You can't say that leonard is versatile, and then turn around and act like standing and trading was leonard's MO.. He changed/adapted styles depending on his opponent... With a guy like duran, standing and trading was the wrong game plan, in the rematch, ray showed his adaptability and was on his way to a decision win...

Why can't you guys just admit that ray fought the wrong game plan in the first fight, and the right game plan in the rematch... Even ray himself has said that many times...

[IronDanHamza]

Leonard was very versatile,, he could hunt you down if need be, or he could outpoint you if need be...

In the first duran fight, leonard even though he was an excellent hunter in the ring, fought to duran's strength even though it was also a strength of leonard.
Of course leonard can stand and trade, or hunt someone down, but it was the wrong game plan for that fight... Had he done what he did in the 2nd and horrible 3rd fight, i think leonard would have won a decision

Leonard self admits that he had the wrong game plan for duran in the first fight.. Going to war with duran was not smart, as duran is so cagey in a firefight...

I really don't see how you guys can say leonard fought "his fight" when that style is also duran's fight...

You can't say that leonard is versatile, and then turn around and act like standing and trading was leonard's MO.. He changed/adapted styles depending on his opponent... With a guy like duran, standing and trading was the wrong game plan, in the rematch, ray showed his adaptability and was on his way to a decision win...

Why can't you guys just admit that ray fought the wrong game plan in the first fight, and the right game plan in the rematch... Even ray himself has said that many times...

Obviously it was the wrong game plan because he lost.

But he wasn't fighting out of character in the first fight. It was the second fight he fought out of character.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Obviously it was the wrong game plan because he lost.

But he wasn't fighting out of character in the first fight. It was the second fight he fought out of character.

I don't know if it was out of character, as much as it was the leonard hadn't really faced a guy yet that he needed to "outbox"

Like what you and others have said, and i agree with, leonard was young, big, fast, and could usually walk thru opponents and hadn't really faced a guy yet he couldn't walk down/thru....

So i don't think it was out of character, just that he never needed to do it before that fight..